Should the Pros Upgrade to C11? Here's my experience

Good points. Maybe Steinberg should just skip a year then. Cut there loss and spend more time testing and fixing.

Really? Every year you pay $100 usd?

Assuming you upgrade every year, what did you pay last year for C10.5? Or C9.5? Or C8.5?

I understand your feeling, these major updates do tend to introduce some new bugs - I’m always finding Command F (search MediaBay (MacOS) doesn’t work on a lot of the major updates. I use this all the time so it’s super annoying to me - I search sounds in Mediabay super fast with this - if Ableton somehow had this bug they would patch it the next day since it is so central to the programs workflow, but Cubase is so feature rich and complex they’ll just fix it when they do. It would be great if they could do Beta releases ala Reaper / Ableton / Bitwig. Definitely adds a level of confidence in the development.

in regards to offline render speeds, some plugins have settings to use different quality for playback and higher quality for renders. Aether and B2 reverbs have these settings and it makes quite a difference if you have them set to the highest oversampling/quality settings to your render times.

I think Voxengo also have a 2,4,6,8x oversampling on render option too.


Actually, here in Canada, we usually pay 150 CAD for the round up versions and I think 120 CAD for the .5 versions. It’s priced higher than the actual exchange rate for some reason. I never understood that. None if the extra charges go to my government as duties. It’s simply priced higher and there’s nothing we can do about it. I even tried to use a VPN to try and fool the servers but my account is linked to canadien prices.

But you’re right. It’s misinformation to say it costs 100 USD each year. My bad. .5 usually are cheaper. I want to say 60 USD? Can’t remember.

Interesting, I did not know that. Makes sens.

He’s raising very valid points and developing arguments to justify his judgement.
I’ve also lost trust in Steinberg and I’m not planning to update any time soon until I see a change in direction in the development process. I’m actually still using Cubase 10 (even after purchasing 10.5) because I don’t want to re-test every feature that I use (I’m afraid it will introduce bugs).

As an example, I used to use MIDI sends, but I later discovered that they would occasionally freeze the sound in Cubase when I was recording MIDI so I stopped using them. I ignore if there was something “wrong” in my project or if it was a bug but I would expect Cubase to help me diagnose that instead of simply freezing without even an error message.

With that said, if I limit myself to what I know that works, I still prefer Cubase to all the other DAWs to produce for my particular needs. Studio One and Ableton Live though are only a couple of features away from being able to replace Cubase in my projects. In live projects Ableton has already replaced Cubase in what I do.

Comments as this one don’t provide any information at all. If you are not using any of the features that have bugs, of course that you are happy, but it is not reassuring to know that you can’t use some of the options in Cubase without running into problems.

The first thing that comes to mind is how many times support has asked me to reset my user preferences every time that I update Cubase and something doesn’t work. The result is that now I always try to force myself to “default” options because I know the rest of them will eventually have bugs.

Can’t even get an equal price with a VPN, huh? That sucks. No love between Germany and Canada I guess. Steinberg is the only company that makes a tough exchange rate worse. Even an option to pay in USD would show a modicum of decency toward canadian customers.

I will end with this quote taken from REAPER’s home page :

"Constant Evolution
A new REAPER 6 license includes unlimited free updates through REAPER version 7.99. Frequency varies, but updates are typically released every few weeks.

These updates include bug fixes, feature improvements, and significant new features, all of which are free. Updates only take a minute or so. All preferences and configurations are preserved, and forward and backward compatibility are maintained."

Now that’s what I call a respectable and honest DAW.

Guys, Steinberg policies are great!

Think about it, you keep old versions functional!

And there is more, demo versions are 30 days of ‘usage’!

I have a Nuendo demo running for months, only for some small things. And I still have 9 straight hours of usage.

Steinberg is fair

Reaper is not not exactly made by a normal software company.
It’s made by a multi millionaire as a labor of love, he does not have to make a profit.
I’m sure he makes enough to pay the 1 employee listed on the company page.

I agree it’s a different business models but it’s not as if Steinberg and Yamaha are low on cash. They are a huge corporation. Yamaha makes grand pianos, drums guitares and synth alongside 4x4 recreational vehicles and motorcycles. It’s just a different business model. They have more than enough resources to hire a few extras to fix bugs all year. It’s about priorities and pleasing the share holders. They directors at Steinberg must have simply know that they make more money by pleasing the masses instead of making a solid DAW for professionals. I say they should do both. Keep innovating but dont cheap out on maintenance and quality.

Yamaha are one of the few companies that still give a lot back to the music world. They provide free/loan pianos etc for clubs/schools etc. I’ve done a couple of TV shows where Yamaha have provided us with everything we wanted /needed for the duration of the show. Then afterwards offered us the gear at a really low price if we wanted. They still have a great endorsement package for artists at a time when more or less everyone has stopped free endorsement things.

Steinberg are still their own company and run their own ship , there’s sometimes still issues getting things sorted between these two companies due to them being separate companies to all intents and purposes.

If you’ve ever worked in Japan or with a Japanese company you will understand that they do things very differently to us in Europe and that can be difficult to negotiate/navigate regardless of that being an individual or a company.


it’s not as if Steinberg and Yamaha are low on cash. They are a huge corporation

If “being huge” always meant “not being short on cash,” there would be no bankruptcies.
Yet, there are, so that relationship doesn’t hold.

I can’t imagine any company intentionally pricing their product higher than what it is in other countries for no reason at all. If none of this extra goes to the government, maybe there is additional tax on the German side regarding trade in Canada?

I do echo some of your sentiments regarding your original post. However I don’t think the paradigm will change in the near future, because of the general DAW market, and the fact that prosumers control it. And IMO, there aren’t enough “pros” who would pay the “necessary amount” required to make it “right.” If Steinberg charged say…$3000 for a genuinely pro DAW, and make it “right” I’m guessing the amount of “pros” would drop significantly. :smiley: When they added the name Pro I did see a small change in direction. I get the feeling they want this as much as “pros” want it, but the money simply doesn’t add up. Avid and subscription should also suggest hints about the current DAW market.

And I know nothing of the Yamaha Steinberg relationship. Some people assume Yamaha throws wads of cash at Steinberg? However it could be possible that Yamaha has never given Steinberg a penny other than integrating the hardwares. No one knows except Steinberg and the head of some unknown Yamaha division. Look at the huge cash infusion prosumer-driven Native Instruments received a couple years ago. Today IMO there isn’t much to show for it. They did pink slip 20% layoffs a year ago, settle employee discrimination lawsuits, talk about a subscription plan still in the works, and the CEO Daniel Haver quit a few months ago suggesting “new blood” needed in leadership.

I really appreciate the original posters careful explanation and thoughts on this matter. A quick glance between you and the original poster makes it clear who is the more “pro” not just in audio but in the way they think, explain, analyze and share information. If you want to provide a counter point, tell us all the ways as a ‘pro’ you appreciate the upgrade. Tell us about all subtle ways this upgrade has improved your ‘pro’ workflow.

There is no doubt at all to anyone with a brain that Steinberg (YAMAHA) is caught in a set cycle of addiction to our upgrade cash and they are stuffing the software full of useless junk to try and justify each bug filled upgrade. That doesn’t mean I’m not getting great recordings from cubase, I am and I enjoy using it and have for many years. However, this bloat is going to eventually overcome my slightly older computer which is loaded with ram and otherwise is a rock solid music making machine. I will never upgrade this machine because Steinberg continue to bloat up cubase. Instead I will switch to Luna when it’s available for Windows if this continues. Everything else I have is UA - so why not?

If you stop for a moment and look at what this company has done since being purchased by Yamaha, it’s clear the bottom line is the most important aspect of the cubase development path, not users, not workflow, not advice from pros…revenues. period.

I believe every single one of the original poster’s thoughts is valid, I applaud them for bringing them up in a considered way, and I encourage others to do the same. We are the users, we are the ones making the software do incredible things and make great music. Cubase should not be a competitor to fruity loops, it should be focused on being considered one of the top PRO Daws.

I used to be a ‘support the company kind of guy’ always assuming that of course the software developer has our best interests at heart - Nah, after watching this for a number of years it becomes clear who’s interests YAMAHA have at heart.

You don’t have to imagine it. Tney do, and no other software company does. Extra profit isn’t a motive to pad the exchange rate? As you said, Steinberg has given no reason at all. It’s not difficult for them to communicate one.

I don’t think this is a fair characterisation. To describe the new features as bloat is inaccurate - if you read the forum you can see that many of the new features are appreciated by users. To describe 11 as bug-filled is also inaccurate. Many people are reporting that this is the most reliable .0 version for many years. You cannot know Steinberg’s motivation - that’s pure speculation on your part.

Anything with “pro” in the product name is not really aimed primarily at professionals, now, is it?

I think the main reason it’s an awful upgrade for so many of us is in large part due to the HiDPI support that’s been marketed as a highlight new feature twice already and it’s still a huge mess. Many many bugs on that front. Then the case of breaking the midi modifier inserts with the addition of the Scale assistant is also pretty pathetic at this point.

Of course a lot of the general user seem happy. Sadly, the current situation is that most of them are unemployed musiciens who recently turned to producing and are using the very basic features of Cubase and none of the more extensive features a professional uses every day.

Is hard not to get frustrated when year after year a bunch of hard working professional are asking again and again for simple yet fundamental things like a triplets grid in the audio editor, track presets that saves routings, video render settings etc… All of these were asked many years ago and by many serious users and yet we are still ignored in favor of new stuff for the cool kids to play with on there laptops. I’m dramatizing a bit but in the end that’s what it feels like and the frustration builds up. On the upside, I’m very happy with the recent advancements in the export and import tracks from projects but I’m still giving Cubase a break until they fix more of the fundamentals. I’ll be transitioning to Reaper for at least a few month.