Still no way to add a hook to a rit or accel line?

As in title

There is indeed “still” no way to add a hook to a gradual tempo marking. I’m curious about this requirement, because I don’t think I’ve ever seen it in published music (which is not to say, of course, that it is never done! I do not pretend that I have seen every bit of music published by every publisher in every idiom and in every historical period). Can you tell me more about the publishers who do this, and in what sorts of scores this is done?

I think it was more of a ‘modern’ thing and not something found in Brahms for ex. I’ve seen it somewhere but don’t have the resources to search for it. Hooks are used in 8va signs and pedaling and Sib 7 has an option to put a hook on rit and accel lines.

I am looking forward to the time when people understand what Dorico is (and will be) and stop comparing it to Sibelius (or Finale). If one really likes Sibelius, why not stand by it? Only (half-)joking here. :laughing:

After using Sibelius and Finale for tens of years (and teaching other pros to use them) I am glad that I do NOT have to compare anything with them anymore. Dorico it is, hands down. R.I.P., S. and F. :slight_smile:

Mostly yes, but it some areas…

The reason Sibelius can put a hook on a rit. line is that all lines in the program are drawn using the same generic line-drawing capabilities. In order to make the line-like things in Dorico work in a superior fashion to the way they work in Sibelius and other existing scoring programs, we do not in general use a generic approach, instead building each notation using bespoke code that is designed specifically for the kind of notation in hand. We have not seen rit./accel. lines with hooks on them in published scores or in the standard texts that describe these kinds of things (Gould, Stone, Read, Wanske, Gerou/Lusk, Roemer, Ross, et al.), so it’s not something we built into the processors that handle gradual tempos.

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Well, certainly not of much importance in any case, but thanks.

I’m not saying that we will never implement it, but I would like to find out more about the situations in which it is used. Is it perhaps used because some bright spark spotted that Sibelius and Finale could do it and decided to start doing it to add a bit of visual distinction to their music? (It’s late in the evening, I’m allowed to be cynical.) I can imagine certain complex polytempo relationships that could perhaps benefit from precise indication of the end of a gradual tempo marking, but whether or not I can imagine something isn’t really the issue: if something is widely used, then in general I am in favour of supporting it, notwithstanding issues surrounding opportunity cost (if we add hooks to gradual tempo lines, something else gets pushed out). However, I don’t think this is widely used – but I am always very happy to be proved wrong.

I think that after ww2 when composers were trying to be more precise it may have been used. I haven’t seen it in earlier music, but then again I think they were much less precise (by today’s standards) than we are now. However, with more metric precision found in notation software I can see it wouldn’t serve much purpose.

I have seen it in some compositions, but I cannot remember where. But I attach an example from old piano composition of my, where I would like to use a hook (because in my view it looks better). This composition will be published next year with all my piano compositions by Donemus (the biggest publisher in the Netherlands). If I don’t have then the possibility to use a hook with Dorico I will do it with a graphic-program.

Some type of hooked line - not rit or accel - would be nice. Very common in position fingering, as it very neatly and precisely can show where a position changes. A dashed line can do this, but not as clearly. In the scheme of things, though, it is farther down on the list.

The hooks on rit./accel. lines can be found in the Gould, pg. 185, “Terminating Tempo Change Before the Next Tempo” section. Would be helpful when doing subito tempo changes (could you also consider adding “subito” as an option for tempo changes in the menu? would be helpful too). Thanks!! Loving Dorico!!

I too just found my way here after I couldn’t find this option in Dorico. After reading this comment I grabbed the Gould book off the shelf and followed the index to tempo indications and then to p185 where Gould states:

TERMINATING TEMPO CHANGE BEFORE THE NEXT TEMPO

When a new tempo marking is not a consequence of the tempo alteration, place a vertical notch at the end of the dashes:

♩ = 60 accel. --⌝ a tempo (♩ = 60)

Instead, or as well, indicate with subito that the new tempo is significantly different:

♪ = 126 poco accel. —⌝ ♪ = 192 subito

I was also pretty sure that a professor of mine at Juilliard was the one who told me to use these sort of lines in my music… I only started implementing them in my practice as a result of their suggestion. I may be mistaking though, and it is totally possible they only meant the horizontal lines.

On a separate note, wouldn’t engravers have used similar graver tools to make the 8va lines as well as the rit/accel lines? At least they look similar in the publications I am browsing right now after grabbing some random examples off of my shelf. I’m now looking back in Dorico now and bespoke code is awesome, but in this particular instance it looks a little funny that my cresc, accelerando and 8va are all in pretty close proximity to each other yet have completely different types of dashed lines. The option to make the lines more traditional or similar would be nice, and perhaps a little checkbox to make a closing or opening hook? :wink:

By the way I am looking in a copy of Henle Debussy Children’s Corner, (this is also present in the 1908 Durand first edition) in The Little Shepard there are vertical caesura lines after the horizontal lines after indication “cédez”, presumably this is an indication not to pause the music, but to stop the Cédez. Also in Golliwogg’s Cakewalk he uses the vertical caesura lines after the vertical lines following the tempo indication"Toujours retenu" and that is followed by a “1st tempo”. This seems like a precursor to the practice of the vertical lines that Gould mentions and what is now the subject of this thread.

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Just a comment on this rather old post –

I use a hook at the end of an line extension in organ music indicating a short solo line to be played on another stop or manual.

Also, in connection with the phrase “Take time” when I would use the extension line and hook to indicated a period of time for that operation to continue. I don’t think I’m unique in this!

Just my two-penny-worth!

Since this rather old thread, custom Lines functionality has come along. I don’t remember when Playing Techniques gained the ability to show transition or continuation lines, but they might serve your needs well, too.

Ah, this certainly does. For some reason I’d not spotted this. I assume the hook aspect is still not an option for gradual tempo change markings such as rit. Clearly these could also be a playing technique but I anticipate they would not be interpreted on playback, at least not with the same flexibility
for control. Will investigate. Thanks again!

If I might revive this old thread…I came across this in a score, and as I always do, wondered whether this can be done in Dorico. Since Daniel mentioned that he hasn’t seen this in published music, I’m attaching an excerpt from Adès’s Concert Paraphrase on Powder Her Face from Faber Music. image

Edit: Also found many examples of this in Birtwistle’s Responses by Boosey, of which I am attaching two examples.


Just curious - why two accelerandos following each other?