Termination notes of trills

How do you enter such? This type of thing:


Input as grace notes to the following beat, then use the Grace note before barline property.

Add the grace notes to the quaver, then use the property ‘grace note before barline’.

There was an older post here pointing out they are not actually grace notes, but that’s a musical point, and these answers will serve well enough, as they provide the right visual effect.

If they are not grace notes, then what are they? I was taught that any ornamental note written smaller than the main notes and whose duration is not counted as part of the bar, is a grace note.

Dorico’s ability to handle the ‘before the barline’ grace notes so elegantly has saved me many, many hours of work!

Unless you need grace notes before and after the same rhythmic position [in different voices]. This requires a workaround.

They are the termination of the trill, so not grace notes. It’s not the small size that makes them graces. That’s a standard notation for 18c trills. The duration is counted as part of the bar - its the end of the trill and it takes up its allotted time.

There’s a thread about this here somewhere, referring to the German terminology. I’ll dig it up.


Condivido quello che dice Andro

Just a further note, if you wrote out the trill in full, as was sometimes done, e.g. in some Bach, you would see the terminating notes are part of the trill, and not graces, FWIW. The small notes are just a notational convention in the tr. usage.

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Upon closer examination I conclude that English commentators from 18C to 20C consistently considered all ornaments to be graces unless they were explicitly notated in the measure, in which case they would be termed division s . Thus a tr sign is a grace. Appoggiaturas, acciaccaturas, shakes, mordants and turns are also graces along with any ‘small notes’.

I stress this is an English language interpretation. But I don’t think that is unreasonable as ‘grace note’ is an English term. Dannreuther (a German writing in English) notes:“…In secular songs, the Graces (one grows fond of the quaint old English term) appear as short additions to the tune—little trills, beats, inflections of the voice, and the like…” (Dannreuther, Musical Ornamentation, v1, viii, 1893)

Later he says (in respect of the German term ‘manieren’): “…Manieren may be conveniently divided into two classes. In the one class I put those which are indicated by certain conventional signs or by means of certain tiny notes (Graces proper), in the other class those for which no particular signs are in use, but which consist of many short notes written out in full (Divisions).” (ibid, v2, p4)

Grove appears to restrict grace notes to just the written notes and not the ornamental marks, except for the reference to appogiatura and acciaccatura: “Grace notes: Ornamental notes written or printed smaller than the ‘main text’ and accorded an unmeasured duration which is not counted as part of the written bar length. Speed of execution depends on the nature of the ornament they represent and to some extent on the tempo of the music but, except in the case of appoggiaturas, grace notes are usually performed lightly and very quickly. The ornament most commonly expressed as a grace note is the simple acciaccatura, but Chopin, Liszt and others often used quite lengthy strings of grace notes for piano figuration…” (Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians).

More recently: “Musicians have to make many interpretive decisions when performing a piece. For example, the grace note, a one-note musical ornament, has no precise duration written in the score; it has to steal its duration from either the preceding or following melody notes…” (Timing of Ornaments in the Theme from Beethoven’s Paisiello Variations…, Renee Timmers et al. Music Perception, v20.1, 2002)

I could quote many others…

Small notes, without duration, are grace notes! (as are all ornamental marks)

Vorschlag and Nachtshlag are German terms, with no English equivalent.

Except it has no allotted time (hence it is a grace note)

Respectfully disagree. The trill takes up its allocated time (in my example, a minim) and does not steal time from other notes. Again, you can write the trill in full, and there are no grace notes involved (using the modern sense of grace note, and not as the archaic use for all ornament).

I suppose we are off topic for Dorico, except that semantically what Dorico does is not right in the context of a trill termination, although it can be achieved visually. And just because English lacks the precision of German does not mean the German description and usage is musically incorrect.

Thanks for your very interesting research on this.

I agree, we’ll not agree!
(If you wrote the trill out in full it would be a ‘division’ not a grace. Semantically Dorico is only incorrect in its German version, as it does know about nachtschlag!)

Let’s be grateful the correct ‘look’ can easily be achieved.

As I remarked above, it would be handy if we could have both a trill termination (a perfectly good English equivalent for Nachschlag) before the barline and an acciaccatura or appoggiatura (both perfectly good English equivalents for Vorschláge, although ‘borrowed’) after the barline. This would mean that Dorico would have to look upon the trill termination as something different from a grace note which appears after the barline.
I like the word ‘Nachtschlag’. It suggests a siege by night! :wink: