Two time signatures

I’ve moved an arrangement of Carmen I made in Finale over to Dorico via XML and the translation went pretty well. There’s one spot, however, in which one of Finale’s ‘shortcomings’ made it easy to notate some voices in 6/8 and some in 2/4 with all barlines coinciding. XML didn’t quite know how to translate this section and I don’t know how to make it work in Dorico. Do I need to notate everything in 6/8, hide the time signatures in the two necessary voices, insert 2/4 as text and then work with hidden tuplets?

Two time signatures.jpg

Not quite, no. This has been explained plenty of times before, so I’ll just quote Marc - can you figure out the details from this?

It looks as though I’m going to have to re-enter the two vocal lines anyway, but it’s still a lot of work. So for the top voice (Carmen) I’ll actually be making a 2/4 bar with three upbeat quarters, then I’ll enter the first quarter as a hidden duplet (2 eighths in the space of 3) tied to a hidden duplet eighth in the space of 3. Right? And the bottom voice (Don José) will have the same hidden quarter rest as Carmen had the note and the second beat will be a forced eighth triplet in the space of 3 eighths. Is that the best way to do this? If so, pfff, and that’s the only first bar!

The need to rewrite will be entirely dependent on what’s imported it, and you’ve not shared that with us. You’re on the right lines, but bear in mind you can “tuplify” existing notes after the fact, and with Insert mode switched on there may not be much rewriting to actually do.

Unfortunately I can’t copy a tuplet definition onto an existing note, as this erases it. I have either to make new tuplet definitions for each group of notes or to re-enter them. I had said that I’d imported this from Finale via XML.

You can’t copy tuplet definitions but you can add them individually as you go along (and this particular bit is nothing to do with it being a MusicXML import - it would be the same on a native file).

Here’s how I had to make this portion of the vocal score… If it can help you, Vaughan, I can send it to you (to copy/paste the vocal parts)

That’s a really kind offer, Marc, but I’m pretty much finished with that section and besides, it’s good practice for me to get as fluent as possible with these work methods. It’s ironic that Finale’s weakness as a measure-based data base notation system actually makes passages like these extremely easy. On the other hand, passages with staggered barlines are a nightmare. It was interesting to see how the XML translation tried to deal with this by either filling out the 2/4 bars by adding rests or sometimes skewing the barlines so that the system track isn’t synchronous with the bars. On a different note, FWIW I avoid beaming to lyrics syllables whenever possible, but we’ve had that discussion here, as well!

Dear Vaughan,
You know that you can select all the vocal part, and Edit>Beaming > Reset beaming, right? :wink:

Yes, I do!
Just curious. Why did you notate Carmen? I did it because I had to make an arrangement of it for small ensemble (2 flutes, oboe, clarinet, bassoon, horn, trumpet, trombone, bass trombone, harp, strings and percussion). Next year I’ll arrange my previous arrangement for an even smaller ensemble, that’s why I’m converting the old Finale file to Dorico.

I simply wanted to create an “ultimate edition for singers” that have both all the texts, all the recitatives (because theatres nowadays do not take the risk of the original version), the right lines for Frasquita and Mercedes (they are messed up in most versions and the singers need to accommodate their score to their voice)… And it was a good way for me to learn Dorico deep. It also provides me a great playback every time I need to work on this opera, which is quite valuable too.

Excellent and interesting reasons, Marc.
I’ve just run into another problem. When I set up the first 2/4 bar as an upbeat bar with 3 quarters, it seems impossible to set up the following rhythm: a quarter note, an eighth rest and an eighth note (the text is ‘Et surtout, la chose enivrante…’). I can set it up fine, either as 2 quarters in the space of three or as 4 eighths in the space of 6, but as soon as I turn the first eighth on the second beat into a rest, Dorico changes it to two quarter rests. Can you think of a way around this, except to leave the bar as 6/8, hide the time signature and enter it as text?

2 anomaly.png
1 ok.png

You can input a quaver/eighth rest with Force Duration turned on.

I suppose I did what Leo suggests :wink:

Edit : I checked, and turning on View > Note and Rest colours > Implicit rests, here’s the thing :

Very clever! It didn’t seem logical to be able to replace two quarter rests with a single eighth rest just by using Force Duration, but I suppose this upbeat bar is a special situation. I also wonder why this only affects rests and not notes. In any case, thanks to both of you!