Unable to input string harmonics in notation software

In the image below, when selecting the G string for natural harmonics, it turns into a red note. How can this be resolved?

Red notes normally mean that the note is outside the playable range of the instrument. Can a violin play those notes as harmonics?

The colour is only on-screen: it won’t affect print or graphics (unless you want it to).

Yes. The 5th partial of a string has 4 nodes, at 1/5, 2/5, 3/5 and 4/5 of the string length. Any of those can be lightly touched to produce the same overtone. Unfortunately, Dorico doesn’t yet recognise the 2/5 (major 6th) an 3/5 (major 10th) variants.

4 Likes

:smiling_face:Thank you for your response, so is this a known vulnerability? Will Dorico fix it in future versions?

That’s just a visual warning for your benefit to keep things within an instrument’s actual range. You can turn off (or change) note colors under the view menu.

I think ‘vulnerability’ is too big a word here. I’d call it an inconvenience. As you found out already, you can notate these notes with the appropriate diamond noteheads, although Dorico doesn’t seem to understand what they are, and they don’t play back at the correct pitch. This issue has been mentioned in earlier threads, so the developers know about it. Hopefully, this will be improved/expanded upon in a future version.

While I was experimenting with it for a moment, I found Dorico even refuses to assign the G string to the red notes. The option in the properties panel just doesn’t stick, although these natural harmonics are perfectly valid on the G string.
A thing I don’t understand is why you can indicate a node number in the Properties panel. It doesn’t seem to have any effect on notation or playback. The manual doesn’t even seem to mention this property. Is it actually functional (yet)?

4 Likes

String players out there: are there differences in the timbre and/or amplitude across different nodes for the same harmonic?

In this instance, would the 2/5- and 3/5-node harmonics sound less effective? (Just curious if there was a musical reason behind their not being recognized by the software…)

No, there is no discernable difference in pitch or tone quality between the harmonics played on different nodes. For some reason even I don’t know, despite being a cellist myself, the touch-6th harmonic (the 2/5 node) speaks slightly easier than the 1/5 node (on the major 3rd), although they’re both usable.
One important reason the 2/5 node is used quite frequently is the vicinity of the Âź and 1/3 harmonics in the same position on the same and adjacent strings, that make it possible to play (part of) a scale and nice broken triads in natural harmonics. This is a trick used by many composers in solo pieces, because it sounds awesomely virtuosic (a whole melody in harmonics!) while being utterly simple to play :grinning:
I’m afraid the omission of the 2/5 and 3/5 nodes is just a matter of incompleteness of Dorico. I hope they’ll find the opportunity to expand this section even more.

5 Likes

Fantastic explanation — thanks, @PjotrB! I suspected as much, but wanted to ask those who really know. (And — “oh, what the heck?” — extend some benefit of the doubt while I was at it! :smile:)

Especially now I agree that it will be a welcome addition.

Thank you for your patient explanation! So this is a known issue, and the software developers just haven’t fixed it yet, right?

I think the developers simply didn’t realise that there are several ways of producing these harmonics, or that players actually use them. It’s not really a bug, just an incomplete feature.
The team reads this forum diligently, so they definitely know.

2 Likes

Hi, I’m a “cellist” too, which I put in quotes because I’m much less experienced - still in my third year and learning all this stuff! I’m wondering, wouldn’t there be a slight timbral and coloration difference based on the string used (since each string speaks better or differently than others), as well as the distance to the bridge (which will also often dictate contact point, where a string player will likely play closer to the fingerboard vs. closer to the bridge, thus affecting brightness and volume as well)? Or does it not matter once you’re playing harmonics?

2 Likes

Yes, of course! While the choice of different nodes (on the same string) doesn’t matter much for timbre — it’s the same string after all, vibrating the same way — there are absolutely audible differences between strings, even playing the same pitch. As we know, this is true for regular notes, but it also applies to harmonics. Thicker strings speak less easily, and higher partials also require more precise bowing, closer to the bridge. Playing a high harmonic (touching the string in a low position) too far sul tasto risks even damping it entirely as you may come too close to another node (on the other end of the string) that obviously also should stand still. Also bowing exactly between two nodes will kill much of the resonance, because you suppress all octave partials above it. So choosing the sweet spot for the best tone quality applies also to harmonics.
The closer to the bridge, the sharper and more focused the timbre becomes, although it never gets as focused as a regular forte bowing relatively close to the bridge, because one essential difference is that harmonics need to be played with less pressure and more bow speed, one might say: more ‘sweeping’-like.
Overall, harmonics on lower strings have a duller sound quality, because the upper partials (i.e. above the harmonic you’re playing) resonate less anyway.

You probably know the trick of quickly checking your tuning by playing the 2nd and 3rd partials on adjacent strings: the octave harmonic on one string should match the 3rd partial (12th) on the string below it. It’s easier to hear a slight difference between two identical high notes than the murky fifth of the open strings down low, especially if people around you are also busy tuning.

Happy cello learning!

7 Likes

Thank you for the master class, @PjotrB, from one who isn’t learning the cello but loves learning how better to exploit it!

2 Likes

Wow, thank you so much for all that detail – it really helps clarify many questions I’ve had while sitting down and exploring harmonics at the instrument.

It’s funny you say this because I actually did not know! This year I’ve actually joined a local community adult amateur chamber string ensemble (fortunately we’re all at the same level, sounding out of tune together lol). Last night when I went to tune with the group I was having difficulty with my C & G strings indeed for how low they are. I am going to play around with that trick this week so I can use it next time at practice – thanks for sharing!

(apologies to OP for the thread takeover haha)

1 Like

Hey,
I think this is a critical area for developers to pay more attention to and update in the future. I think this gut, young composer and cellist, has a good explanation of how to write harmonic in Dorian. There’s nothing complicated, but I’m looking for more solutions for the correct way to insert harmonics as he can demonstrate. And we still have some problems.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thGCUQlEn98&t=933s

1 Like