Undeletable hidden time signatures

The new signposts has revealed some hidden time signatures in my score. They seam to break my multibar rests. I suspect that they come from copy/paste.
I’m not able to delete these signatures.
The only workaround I have found is deleting the bar. Is there another way?
Skjermbilde 2016-11-25 kl. 17.38.20.png

Same question here. I have a situation where I’ve decided to shorten a Flow by three bars, but the three bars each have hidden meter signatures that I can’t delete, so Trim Flow doesn’t work.

The explanation for the hidden time signature at measure 193 is explicable. The program seems to enter a hidden time signature at every double barline (or repeat bar) presumably to force a break in multi-measure rests. Why you cannot delete the hidden time signature a measure later is a different matter.

Please attach the project (zipped up) if you want us to diagnose the problem.

This is reproducible and indeed happens everywhere there’s a different barline than the normal one. The 2nd Goldberg variation I just posted elsewhere shows this. Here it is again. There are hidden time signatures at all the repeat signs and they cannot be deleted.
Goldberg var 2.dorico.zip (133 KB)

A hidden time signature at the same position as a special barline is inevitable, because special barlines essentially are time signatures internally. However, we could certainly choose not to display the time signature signpost for a special barline if it’s the same as the prevailing time signature, and I imagine we might do this in a future update.

Daniel, if one chooses the projected option to delete hidden time signatures at atypical barlines, will that stop multi-measure rests from breaking there in the parts?

No, multi-bar rests will still break at non-standard barlines, because that’s surely what should happen anyway.

I had a LOT of these—in one place, 8 bars in a row with no kinds of special bar lines, just hidden meters in every bar.

I think I caused them by using the Repeat (“R”) key on the first bar after a special bar line, which copied the hidden meter change along with everything else. I ended up Alt/Opt-copying the rest of the measures, one at a time (yes, it’s a repetitious chart!), and in each case, the hidden change went along for the ride.

The way I “fixed” them is hardly elegant—I selected the contents of all the bars with hidden meter markings, copied them into the clipboard, deleted the affected bars, created new, empty replacement bars, and copied the contents back into them.

Again, not elegant, but effective. :slight_smile:

Hi Daniel,
I hope you can help.

When I change a double barline back to a normal one, the hidden time signature change is still there and cannot be deleted. If I choose to show it in the properties panel, select it and try to delete the time signature. It simply hides it again. Also there these hidden time signature changes choose to break multimeasure rests…

Do I do something wrong?

koen

To change a double barline to a normal barline, select the double barline and hit the Delete or Backspace key on your keyboard.

Do not try and insert a “Normal” barline.

Ha, thanks, that’s the trick!

Koen

Nearly a year after you posted this, you have solved my current mystery. That is exactly what i needed to know in order to get rid of a pointless, unwanted time signature signpost in the middle of a phrase. I put the double barline back, hit Backspace, and Presto! Perfect! (Except, how would I have discovered this, without our wondrously helpful forum? :slight_smile: )

Thank you, pianoleo!

I just learned about this same behavior recently. To quote Paul Walmsley, from the Dorico FB group:

Internally we call them ‘bar divisions’. Explicit bar lines and time signatures are things that contribute to the ‘barination’ (we love making up words) and so barlines and time sigs are really just different personalities of a bar division.

Makes so much more sense now!

Thanks for this thread! I just had the same problems here.

I (genuinely) wish I could say the same. I do want to understand Dorico’s philosophy for this, so I can better manage and understand my scores. Is there in fact a place I can turn to for a full explanation for where and why signposts for key- or time-signatures do or don’t appear?

For instance, I thought it reasonable that an “Atonal” signpost (for a section that I had indeed created as atonal) was followed by a key signature signpost for a conventionally tonal passage … except that in some instances, that doesn’t happen, and just the key signature suffices for the tonal passage. So I’m still trying to work that out. I see that single vs. double barlines are sometimes involved in the process, but I want to understand exactly why and how.

Key signatures show signposts if they have no accidentals (so that’s C major/A minor/Open/Atonal). This is because, depending on your Engraving Options, they may be otherwise entirely invisible.

Time signatures show signposts either because they’ve been hidden, or because there’s a pickup bar.

I understand that, but what about other key signatures? Sometimes they show a signpost, sometimes they don’t. For a while I reasoned that a signpost was essential if the tonal section followed an atonal one (to cancel the atonal situation), but that turns out not to be the case.

I think you’ll need to give examples that don’t exactly follow these rules. There may be exceptions but I can’t think of any off hand.

I’m happy to do so, but the rules for key-signature signposts seem incomplete as stated. “Key signatures show signposts if they have no accidentals (so that’s C major/A minor/Open/Atonal)” – but there’s no mention of signposts for other kinds of key signatures so I don’t know what behavior is expected, so I don’t know what rules are or aren’t being followed.