Virgin Territory - what the point in it?

I was very exited about this “improvement” when I heard it gonna exist in Cubase 8.5 Pro (only ‘pro’, kinda greedy). I had LE and this feature was a big reason to make an Upgrade.

What I have now is a useless feature that add near nothing. In previous version of automation in Cubase you couldn’t move fader if there were any automation on fader/rotary/button, now you can move it but it is kinda pointless. If you stop the playback, fader jumps into automated position of last Terminator. I guess Terminator should TERMINATE autimation influence.

If you really want to know how this feature should work, get Propellerhead Reason 5 from 2010 and get it.

To me it is an obvious bug. Fader should stay where I left it at Virgin Territory. After stop too. That’s the point.
So in Cubase9 I still need to use an old days hack and use Gain VST to control my levels and have Mixer Volume Fader free, to adjust the balance, etc.

Win 7 64
Cubase 9.0.20
How to recreate: create an automation for volume and see that you don’t have any control of if anymore, go and edit automation if you need some changes, even while mixing stuff.

I agree… For me, it is useless. :unamused:

Unfortunately, I’m thinking this is the way Steinberg designed it to work. So it’s not really a “bug” or issue". This is really a feature request.

Oh well.

Regards :sunglasses:

I don’t see any “feature” here. It becomes more unpredictable though.
All I can think now is how my project has blown with +40 Db sound at one track while average Db rate was -16 at 3:00 a.m. and it scared shit out of me -_-

I use a plug-in gain meter also, to keep the fader free, but I often forget and automate the fader anyway, and then I still have nothing I can adjust the balance quickly on the fly. :frowning:

I cannot think what possible use the current ‘Virgin Territories’ setup could be to anybody. If it’s ‘by design’, they have designed a completely useless feature.

Forgive me if I don’t understand.

If activating Trim in automation panel - doesn’t fader then stay and wait for any relative changes?

I usually turn off freeze trim and do manually when I feel I’m done.

Yes, but that is not what is being discussed in this thread i.e. the ‘Virgin Territory’ feature.

As a possible answer to the OP … I think I may remember from a long ago series of threads on Virgin Territory (when it first came out) that things worked better if there was a reference automation point placed at time zero in the project? It should be searchable in the Cubase 8.5 forum.

I was on Cubase 7 then, skipped directly to 9, so never tried out that suggestion and can’t vouch for it, but maybe that’ll help someone.

This is simply adding in another invisible terminator?

I think you have a preference setting enabled that relocates the cursor to where you started playback. If you don’t have this enabled, then the fader will stay where it is when you stop playback.

However, it’s still a useless feature because as soon as you relocate the cursor yourself, the fader will move to whatever the last automation position is (even if you are in a ‘virgin territory’ area). If the cursor cycles round the loop locators, the fader will also be repositioned.

What possible use is this? Is there ANYONE who uses this feature? If so, what do you use it for? Am I missing something here???

Yes, you do need a point at the beginning

But what purpose of it? You still can’t freely move controls, cuz when you stop playback, they will go back into that “initial” position (as in the first post).


Editing such an automations is even more hard because it is a pixel hunting game: check it out, what is easy to select and move?
this (one dot at the beginning):

or this (plain selection)

especially on a bigger zooms?



But anyway all this “go into the autmation field and adit automation dot for a group volume fader” approach while mixing is dumb and distracting, don’t you think?

And here is my answer to the next poster.

Yes and No. The idea with terminators is kinda good. but I don’t get why a dot can terminate only forward? And not backward?




But the very main question is: why control/fader/rotary doesn’t stay where I left it while on virgin territory?




What about Reason approach?
Well it have ‘events’ for atomation. And you need ‘enter’ it to edit automation. I don’t say it is the best way, but it fixes this issue, for example (accidental editing).

But the real trick here is this grey line, it is indicating what the default value is and you never need guess what gonna happen outside of the automation.

You can edit default value in Project area:

Now look how default value works. Blue - is automation. Grey is virgin territory.





Reason has disadvantages too, though. Here you can see that moving rotary disables automation reading not the default parameter for the whole track (gray line stays still). This can be improved in Cubase: if move rotary at the virgin territory - it chages defaults. If moving it while at automation zone - it is unavailable (returns into automated position immediately).


So how it can be actually made in Cubase?
…meh, I will make a graphic prototype later. Tell me what you think, people, do you understand what I am talking about?

Yes, I understand. I quite like the ‘Default’ concept in Reason, although I can also see situations where you might not want that.

I think if Steinberg just changed it so that when you reposition the cursor, or when the cursor passes round the cycle locators, the fader does not get repositioned… …this would be a useful feature. Then you could go to a Virgin Territory part of your project, and experiment with your fader positions. When you are happy, you can write this as automation.

yeah thats nice

Now could you do the same ‘test’ in Reason for ‘virgin territory’ position please…?

Does the fader stay where you left it on stop, or does it snap to this ‘default’ value grey line…? If it does, then what are we discussing here - I thought you wanted the behaviour of the fader to ‘stay put’ where you left it on stop (in ‘Virgin Territory’)…?

If you like the Reason behaviour, then you need to write a starting (default) automation point at the very beginning of the automation track in Cubase. Its the equivalent, isn’t it.? Or am I missing something…

The manual describes using Virgin Territory like I think you want it to behave (leaving the fader where you left it on stop) - but your animation in the original post suggests it certainly does not work as stated there… (not at my machine to check for myself…)

Bob

The fader does stay where it is on stop (just as it does without Virgin Territory) BUT when you relocate the cursor to anywhere else in the project, or if you pass round the cycle locators, EVEN IN VIRGIN TERRITORY, the fader will reposition to the most recent automation value. Useless!

I think the OP has a preference enabled that resets the cursor when you stop playback to where it was when playback started, causing the fader to reposition as soon playback is stopped.

Ok, understood - thanks.

But, I’m unclear - the OP said we should look to Reason to see how this function should work… However, then we’re shown an animation that doesn’t perform the same test and another that displays some default ‘grey line’ business… and I’m asking where the distinction is… I’d like to see evidence of the wanted behaviour please (fader not re-setting on playback in Virgin Territory)…

Don’t get me wrong; I’m not arguing here - just curious now… :slight_smile:

Bob

J-S-Q leave alone my settings ))) It doesn’t matter!

Answer for both J-S-Q and Puma0382.

Initial setup:

  • Virgin Territory Enabled
  • 1.1.1.0 automation dot(1) at -1.1 Db (which sets ‘default’ value, as Puma0382 said, right?)
  • after dot(2), when terminator is activated and no subsequent automation the default value shoud fire, right? Let’s test.

And… BOOM! No default value, we have a new value -18.5 Db, which is the same result as without dat terminators and virgin territories.
The same like this:

So what the point in it?




And here is how Reason works (grey line is default, filter automation example):

ps: the forum’s 700px images max width pisses me off >_>

Yes, what you are asking for is something like reason which some people MIGHT want. I would call that a feature request (and probably a good one!). What I would probably describe as a BUG is the fact that the fader repositions itself when you move the cursor to an area of Virgin Territory, or when you cycle in Virgin Territory. For me, that makes the feature completely useless and I cannot understand why Steinberg would deliberately design it this way.

+1 I think Steinberg should not chase to the last value within a virgin territory section!!

Mike.

There is this termination-point thingy - does it make a difference if you set last point in automation as termination point?
Manually set it after recording automation with virgin territory active.
(my computer been occupied last 24 hours converting time-lapse stuff - but will try later).

Thinking if there were a setting - Always write termination point when virgin territory is active - or similar.
So having this not checked - it will work like now for you guys - current behavior.

But having it write termination-point when writing ends will make fader completely free between written automation?
It was something in manual that gave me this impression - that termination point delete automation until next automation event, or delete on rest of track if last point. Something like this - as I recall.

Thinking is that sometimes maybe you want fader reset as you continue - since this is how Steinberg did it?