VST Live integration with e.g. Native Instruments Maschine as a live tool

[jrose]

a copy from “audio routing & side chain setup” request:

Thank you fkalmus for your fast reply and
a thank you to the responsible steinberg team
for the coming “side chaining” feature .

You’re totally right: VST LIVE is not CUBASE! (This is good for live!)
CUBASE and “Live performing” I tried this one, long ago
It was going too much in a direction “Cubase comparison”, unintentionally.
Sorry for that. I am “brand new” to VST Live but “really old” to Cubase and some other kind of DAWs for Studio work.

So here we should talk about the already fantastic “live” possibilities of VST Live 2 … and which function we are/may missing and as a result this could be fantastic to unleash the power of VST live 2 “live” performing with “live” DJ content.
In one sentence:
I definitely miss "Live DJ’ing with “Live WAV content” from a “Live band” to realize with VST Live 2 and a VST software like NI Maschine or Ableton Live using the song structure features of VST Live efficiently.

I would like to put this in a new topic, 'cause it is not only about side chaining or routing at all or alone.
And it may need some more words what I am thinking of in detail.
But shortly:
It is about how could a live-DJ be integrated with his band to VST Live 2 and its very well thought “song/part-layer/stacks” structure and playlists to benefit from. And there are already some ideas for a better integration of VSTs like NI machine or even Ableton live in the community, I guess.
I already have some!

And for me - this topic would be one of the most important “live” features - of VST Live 2 for live bands/ musicians working with DJs or DJ-like sound and song features.

Are there any interests?

[musicullum]

@jrose

Are there any interests?

Absolutely. Let us benefit from your experience and how you would like VST Live to be extended to be more useful for DJing. Best to start with most wanted first, we cannot do everything at once. Thanks!

[jrose]

HI Musicullum, you’re welcome and thanks for your interest in my ideas. There are 2 basic things I can think of first and to get it run. (sorry this one is gone quite large)

1. Syncing to another app
2. flexibel internal and external routing of Audio and MIDI (eg. CC)

In my use case it would be - NI Maschine (internal):

1. sync:
   A sync is propagated via VST interface. VST Live Project is controlling speed and transport for NI Maschine. Done.

2. routing audio:
   An VST-app like Maschine, offering 4 stereo inputs and 16 stereo outs as an VST instrument***) misses a smart interface representing these features for flexible routing (no DAW I know does either in a smart consistent way *).

-2a) May it be a good idea to offer those Machine in and outs directly to the central mixer for flexible routing possibilities (very flexible and maybe dangerous for audio feedback. ;-))?
pros: no change to layer, stack modules, (automatic) creation of busses *) for active VST Instruments inputs? Automation possibilities, sending up to 4 dedicated mix(es) for Maschine In(s) , switching inputs can be implemented into the mixer + use of automation features of VST Live to switch those inputs
cons: mixer I/O management needs an addition

-2b) a audio routing VST plugin for audio inserts as an alternative?
(it should handle all activated audio in and outs - hardware + mixer, communicates with layer, stack, mixer in a final step -
FOR NOW: mixer in/outs would be good)
-2c) 2nd step: a MIDI interface/Automation for a selection of audio inputs (busses) to step through for this VST plugin 2b)

pros: no change to mixer, layer, stack module; use it in stacks or mixer inserts; use just an output in a group for a buss like usage (like audio injection).

cons: can it be realized? (VST3 limitations?), control(Automation) from VST Live may be difficult/limited?

example use case:
generate/use one stereo mixer bus directly from an Maschine input for a live sampling buss mix and/or use an audio in-out router as VST in an insert slot and redirect it to another machine audio in-out chain for live audio mangling.
For Maschine there are already 4 static stereo busses for live use!
But if (mixer) automation comes in place, well … (maybe later)

MIDI:
there is only that switching of inputs/busses for Maschine to select an audio source on the fly with Controller (ref. 2b. VST plugin) I’m after for now. (not possible with a side chaining work a round for audio in!)

---

For general use and with external apps/gear

1. Ableton link would be a must have. (link to Serato, VirtualDj, Traktor …) **)
2. routing can also be done external via sound card (afain this is completely implemented, maybe think of that 2b) Plugin for external audio, too or an implementation of this switching feature in the VST Live mixer for a buss - with automation?)

For MIDI input switching an audio chain for sound mangling to external gear would just need a MIDI Interface + DJ (MIDI) surface, or a USB controller, this switchable VST Live mixer buss or this plugin 2b) for external audio (via sound cards). Done.

A necessary re-sync button for Ableton link via MIDI. MIDI is done externally with old school cables. or one can think of WIFI, which would need extra gear (a native Apple protocol is already part of OS for MACs), is this MIDI port working in VST Live? A PC need extra software, which is available) and finally network capable DJ devices (eg. VirtualDJ?)

---

*) my opinion - to VST audio inputs/outputs in general: Why not making all in and outs available to the mixer. Switch one off/hide, for no need, good.- it makes no sense, complicating things - there is one central place for audio management - a mixer! I really can’t think of, why this is not already done(not done any more) in those well known DAWs! (Or did I miss something?)
**) I saw this one several times in other feature-requests. (I know, now one else could change tempo… is the tempo track still in charge … but if there is a freedom of tempo for a musical “live” performance, everything else should follow… light, Video, Text, etc. … VST Live)
***) Could it be that: A Definition of an VST instrument (VST3) is without audio Inputs, so as an result samplers, modular systems (eg. reaktor) and other creative sound mangling or sound generating instruments are not directly represented in the VST world now? Hm.

---

Conclusion for my needs - Step 1:

Only more flexible routing opportunities (audio, MIDI) with audio switching automation to an Maschine input buss will do.
Ideas are adds to the VST Live mixer or a new VST plugin.

Conclusion in general - external apps/gear: - Step 2:

Ableton link for a first step will be fine, when Step 1 is already realized.

Thanks and cheers

[musicullum]

hi jrose, thanks for your input.

@jrose

Syncing to another app

VST Live outputs LTC, MTC and Midi Clock, and can sync to MTC (Edit/Preferences/Transport).

@jrose

flexibel internal and external routing of Audio and MIDI

Just quickly, before we go deeper: you know the concept of VST Live ports (Devices/Connections, including virtual cables), and Mixer Output Channels, do you? This allows infinite inputs and outputs: MIDI In via Layer or track, MIDI out via plugins and ports, audio in via Stacks or tracks, and audio out via Output Channel/Port.
What are you missing in that area?

[jrose]

Hi.

First I can’t see any of my 4 Maschine input busses in the mixer. Where I have to look, when they are there? If they are not …

edit: in Audio-connection I can’t find the plugin inputs either. I definitely miss the routing option, where the virtual in can go here!
How can I connect a VST Input to a virtual stream?

I can see 2 options for bringing VST Instrument inputs to VST Live mixer.

I see a possibility using a group buss, where one can select one of the 4 Inputs of Maschine for the output. OK - this could get messy when using more group busses - it would need naming conventions for the output eg. “to VST In - Maschine 1” to make it clear - signal is not going “Stereo Out” or “master”, but to an VST In.

Another one could be an OUT Ch of the VST Live mixer sends directly to Maschine input via virtual audio busses - these are here, but I don’t know for what, yet. Here we need to configure a connection for those virtual audio busses ( I can see 4 virtual stereo busses) - I can’t find configuration yet.

Then we can use all automation features of the mixer, nice!

Have a look to the screen copies … a picture says more than 1000 words

[jrose]

@musicullum

VST Live outputs LTC, MTC and Midi Clock, and can sync to MTC (Edit/Preferences/Transport).

Thanks. I aware of that, which always mean master - slave functionality, I guess. And it is easy for internal VST Plugins, sync is just there, if we have no problem with an fixed tempo system, which I personally don’t have.

[jrose]

after some testing …

multi channel VST outputs working great for me. (I use groups for these Inputs! … but a kind of, what is like “audio coming from a layer” would be more logical, and … may be a layer folder for multi VST outs a good idea?)

But I can’t find any mixer strip categories which can handle virtual inputs as destination of a group out or output out… these are bound to hardware (stereo out), groups and v-outs , if those v-stream INs are already connected to an real VST Input… I can’t check really … other mixer strips are not available, in the audio-connections window there is no “connection to v- or internal input” visible or adjustable?

For me it is more natural, thinking of a send to v-input or name it directly VST name in #(number), ok, naming is already possible.
But I can’t see what the v-streams right now delivers!

Can/will this be a new mixer strip category “VST Input”?

Is it possible to see which VST uses an v-input/ v-output?

[musicullum]

Your terms are not always clear, so let me repeat the question: did you understand the concept of ports in Devices/ Connections?
A port in VST Live consists of a user provided nam to describe what is connected, and an associated hardware or virtual port.

Virtual connectors are „cables“, e.g. Virtual Audio In 3 is connected to Virtual Audio Out 3, which allows you to create almost arbitrary connections. All of this works for all media (audio, MIDI, and DMX).

As mentioned before, inputs can be connected to tracks or Layers/Stacks, and outputs can be connected to output channels (audio), others are output to plugins or physical outputs. Layers and Stacks each have their individual audio channels, track channels can be seen by clicking „e“ on the Song Bus Channel (the one with the Song name).
Hope this claifies a bit. It is not quite clear what exactly you want to acheive, but maybe virtual connections can help.

[musicullum]

@jrose

which always mean master - slave functionality, I guess

Either VST Live sends MTC or Midi Clock, then VST Live is master and the receiver follows, or VST Live recieves MTC from another source (master, sender is always master) and follows that timecode.

[jrose]

Well, Thank you.
Answering your question first:

@musicullum

did you understand the concept of ports in Devices/ Connections?

A port in software is nothing else as a connection point (e.g.input plug) in the real world, it connects some data for transmission (where we need 2 connection points-ports to mimic a cable - in/Out). These ports can be selected at certain areas in VST Live for eg. internal audio connections between modules in VST Live (eg. with is’s prebuilt 4 virtual stereo/8 mono cables) . Yes.

And here comes the problem, VST Live fooled me, cause these existing 4 “internal” virtual stereo cables are exactly the amount of input ports Maschine 2 should have delivered to VST Live for Input, but it don’t!

VST instrument inputs of Native Instruments Machine - or better ports - are not created, when I use a layer VST Instrument with input ports!

This what Native Instruments Maschine manual is mentioning:
“If Maschine is running as a plug-in in a DAW, the external stereo inputs In 1–8 available in the Source selector of the Audiosection will correspond to virtual inputs in your DAW. This allows you to send mixer channels from your DAW to individual Sounds within Maschine, for example. Refer to your DAW documentation to know how to route signals to the virtual audio inputs of the Maschine plug-in.”
Result: responsible for showing up these virtual inputs/ports is the daw = VST Live!

I realized yesterday, as I tested with Maschine 3 which has 8 virtual stereo inputs - it do not show up a single input port for Maschine 3 here.

@musicullum

All of this works for all media (audio, MIDI, and DMX).

yes, if I had virtual ports for Maschine available for Inputs to connect to.

@musicullum

Either VST Live sends MTC or Midi Clock, then VST Live is master and the receiver follows, or VST Live recieves MTC from another source (master, sender is always master) and follows that timecode.

Thanks and what do you think about Ableton link for VST Live?

So how can we connect to VST Instruments inputs - which are not shown as ports or in the VST plugin user interface window (where you already can see and connect to individual outputs) in VST Live?

Well, I thought I missed things but:
— VST Instruments virtual input ports are just missing in VST Live.

Btw. I was checking other VST Instruments, like Reaktor 6 … same behavior.
So it is definitely a problem with VST Lives port generation for VSTs.
Hope this can be solved.

[jrose]

Thanks musicullum for helping me fighting with VST Lives’s user interface and some definition of terms, where the manual wasn’t helpful… but this could be another topic

My live could have been so easy if this cryptic programming term “Virtual Audio: Stereo 1+2” *) could’ ve been replaced with a more user oriented and use oriented “VST Live’s patch cable stereo In 1+2”. (and all others…)
I am pretty sure other users would agree.

Back to my topic; Is there an integration, VST Live 2 with NI Maschine possible now?
I wish I could say YES but it is a clear “NO”.

This may change when sidechain possibilities are implemented, but for now I wouldn’t even recomment using NI Maschine as a normal plugin.
Reason: Maschine 3 turns VST Live into buggy conditions!

Hope this helps everyone interested in that kind of things.

*) I had a closer look: there are some naming conventions, but not through out of all terms e.g. “Virtual Audio: Stereo 1+2” and “Visual Audio: Virtual Audio Out 1” …but this is so much nicer and user friendly “VST Live’s mono patch cable Out 1” … especially when there is nothing about this in the manual!
As an end user, I don’t want to hassle about computer terms.

[jrose]

What’s left. I will give NI Maschine a try in standalone mode with VST Live and come back here in a while for a report.

Minimal requirements for VST plugin Machine as live tool:
2 stereo inputs (1 Side chain is not enough)
1 MIDI In
4 stereo outputs

[musicullum]

@jrose

Thanks musicullum for helping me

You’re welcome. And now I finally understand what you want to achieve, sorry but we need to continuously process a vast amount of information, and this is a lot of it

@jrose

cryptic programming term “Virtual Audio: Stereo 1+2”

VST Live keeps all terms entirely consistent across all media (audio, MIDI, DMX…) and has a clear structure for devices and ports which is common to all media.

And the Virtual Audio device is exactly that, it behaves like hardware devices and adds the functionality of cables. Wouldn’t call that “cryptic”, but I understand that “virtual” is a very popular term nowadays, and it can be confusing, as everybody uses it for everything.

As for multiple inputs for plugins and side-chaining, we are working on it. hold the line.

[jrose]

@musicullum

hold the line.

Thanks. Can’t wait