VST Note Expression

  1. I am unable to use MIDI CC#0 (BankSel) for MIDI CC in Note Expression. I only can use CC#1-127, but not CC#0
    anybody else?

  2. VST Note Expression MIDI CC data is POST MIDI inserts/pre MIDI sends? Whereas MIDI CC controller lane data is PRE MIDI insert. I’d like to be able to have the Note Expression MIDI CC data available PRE MIDI inserts (for example to alter MIDI channel# with the transformer)

  3. The MIDI channel# is of Note Expression MIDI CC data is the same as the MIDI notes MIDI channel#, right?
    I’d like to have the possibility to specify the MIDI channel# for Note Expression MIDI CC data, either “all” (which results in the same MIDI channel# as the underlying MIDI note, or 1, 2, …, 16 to fix the MIDI channel# Note Expression MIDI CC data is sent on

  4. I’d like to have Note Expression MIDI CC data consolidation for overlapping CC data done in realtime, in addition to the current offline process, to be able to move/edit notes/-lengths with their unaltered Note Expression MIDI CC data.
    There could be an additional option in the global Note Expression settings per MIDI event: MIDI CC consildation: “none”, “truncate overlapping Note Expression MIDI CC data of a note on start of a new note”, “use next MIDI channel# for new note and Note Expression MIDI CC data (with MIDI channel# set to “all”, see 3) abobve)”

Some interesting points there :wink:

By default, CC#0, #32 and #64 are deactivated for Note Expression, but you can activate/deactivate any CC#, as well as pitchbend, channel and poly aftertouch, from the MIDI menu>Note Expression>Note Expression MIDI Setup dialog.

  1. VST Note Expression MIDI CC data is POST MIDI inserts/pre MIDI sends? Whereas MIDI CC controller lane data is PRE MIDI insert. I’d like to be able to have the Note Expression MIDI CC data available PRE MIDI inserts (for example to alter MIDI channel# with the transformer)

I’d never noticed that before, but you are right that the Transformer Insert doesn’t work on the Note Expression. But… I don’t think it is because of pre/post (try a couple of experiments with the MIDI Monitor open… you’ll see that the MIDI Monitor isn’t recognizing the Note Expression data at all, whereas the Logical Editor does treat Note Expression as regular controller data). So I think I agree with you that it is incorrect behavior.

  1. The MIDI channel# is of Note Expression MIDI CC data is the same as the MIDI notes MIDI channel#, right?
    I’d like to have the possibility to specify the MIDI channel# for Note Expression MIDI CC data, either “all” (which results in the same MIDI channel# as the underlying MIDI note, or 1, 2, …, 16 to fix the MIDI channel# Note Expression MIDI CC data is sent on

That wouldn’t make sense :wink:… The whole point of Note Expression is that it belong to the … note! :slight_smile: You can still change the MIDI channel of that note via the Info Line, and the Note Expression will follow. Seems perfectly logical to me :wink:

  1. I’d like to have Note Expression MIDI CC data consolidation for overlapping CC data done in realtime, in addition to the current offline process, to be able to move/edit notes/-lengths with their unaltered Note Expression MIDI CC data.
    There could be an additional option in the global Note Expression settings per MIDI event: MIDI CC consildation: “none”, “truncate overlapping Note Expression MIDI CC data of a note on start of a new note”, “use next MIDI channel# for new note and Note Expression MIDI CC data (with MIDI channel# set to “all”, see 3) abobve)”

I see that creating more problems than it would solve :wink:… How is Cubase supposed to know whether some “overhanging” Note Expression data is intentional or not? (it is designed to allow that parameter to act upon the release section of the note’s envelope)… and it is so easy to do “offline” (and applied only to selected notes).

Thanks vic, already thought nobody actually understands what I’m talking about :wink:

well, I activated ALL MIDI CC#, but, for wahtever reason, the first CC in the list is CC 1, the last is CC 127… so there’s MIDI CC#0 missing in the list… :wink:

Ahh, I only noticed that the transformer did not work on Note Expression MIDI data. I noticed that the Monitor did not show NE MIDI data at all, so I came to think that NE MIDI is post MIDI insert… Do OTHER midi insert work on NE MIDI data? Do you mean the offline logical editor works on NE MIDI data?

Well, I’m doing a little trick here: I want to bind automation data to MIDI notes. I use NE MIDI CC data and send it out a virtual MIDI port. A Generic Remote receives from this port and maps this MIDI CC to a mixer channels Quick Control slot. This mixer channels QC slot is assigned to a VST parameter of the VSTi which is driven by the MIDI note.
I set up the first 16 mixer channels to be dummy channels only for use of their 8 QC, giving me 128 VST Parameters I can control with MIDI CC data for CC#0-128. The Generic Remote is set up to receive these MIDI CC#0-127 on MIDI channel#0F. This all is part of my project template.

So, I need to play a VSTi on any MIDI channel, with Note Expression data controlling automation of that VSTi via MIDI ch#0F.

In a “musical context”, the Note Expression MIDI data has to be bound to the note, yes, in a “technical context”, the MIDI ch# has to differ… :wink:



of course, its pretty straight forward to consolidate colliding NE MIDI data. But AFTER you consolidated the NE MIDI data, if you then move notes there might be CC data missing because it was deleted upon consolidation.

Yes, NE MIDI data is monophonic, I know, and consolidation helps avoiding MIDI CC clutter, but this could be done in realtime, too. The User, ME, decides wether NE MIDI data collides, allways, as I am the one who places notes and NE MIDI data, and I want to freely move CC data and have Cubase consolidate “on the fly”…

No?

So it doesn’t look like this?..
Note Expression Setup.jpg

Do OTHER midi insert work on NE MIDI data?

I haven’t tried, but, seeing as how neither the MIDI Monitor nor the Transformer work, I doubt any of the others would either.

Do you mean the offline logical editor works on NE MIDI data?

Yes it does (treats it as regular CC# data)

Well, I’m doing a little trick here: I want to bind automation data to MIDI notes. I use NE MIDI CC data and send it out a virtual MIDI port. A Generic Remote receives from this port and maps this MIDI CC to a mixer channels Quick Control slot. This mixer channels QC slot is assigned to a VST parameter of the VSTi which is driven by the MIDI note.
I set up the first 16 mixer channels to be dummy channels only for use of their 8 QC, giving me 128 VST Parameters I can control with MIDI CC data for CC#0-128. The Generic Remote is set up to receive these MIDI CC#0-127 on MIDI channel#0F. This all is part of my project template.

So, I need to play a VSTi on any MIDI channel, with Note Expression data controlling automation of that VSTi via MIDI ch#0F.

Are you triggering from a Part on a MIDI track, or are you triggering live? (if the latter, can you set the outgoing MIDI channel from your keyboard?.. the MIDI channel correlation should be maintained throughout the MIDI signal path, surely?.. and if you are talking about pre-recorded MIDI notes, so long as the Midi track is set to “Any”, if you channelize the desired notes, then, likewise, correlation should be maintained (maybe I’ve missed the point completely?)

of course, its pretty straight forward to consolidate colliding NE MIDI data. But AFTER you consolidated the NE MIDI data, if you then move notes there might be CC data missing because it was deleted upon consolidation.

I know it would involve more preparatory work, but couldn’t you extended the individual Note Expression windows, before consolidating?

Yes, NE MIDI data is monophonic, I know, and consolidation helps avoiding MIDI CC clutter, but this could be done in realtime, too. The User, ME, decides wether NE MIDI data collides, allways, as I am the one who places notes and NE MIDI data, and I want to freely move CC data and have Cubase consolidate “on the fly”…

No?

I’m sure there’s something I’m not grasping here :wink:, but, is there a circumstance in which you’d want to move a note, such that its actual length overlaps the next note, but its note expressions doesn’t? (So long as you don’t need the actual notes to overlap, couldn’t you just select the notes in question, then use the key command “Delete Overlaps (poly)”?

Ok, a use case for realtime consolidation:

You have one 1/16th note at the beginning of a bar, which triggers a VSTi sound with a long decay.
you extend the NE editor for that note to end at the bar end and draw a cutoff curve (MIDI CC#11).
now you place another 1/16th note near the end of that bar and also draw NE data for MIDI CC#11 for the duration of that note.

These would overlap now, so you consolidate. The NE data of the first note gets erased for the start and duration of the second note.

Later in time you move the second note left in time.

again, NE data collides, you consolidate again, then having TWO erased segments for the first note… Etc…


Which wouldn’t be the case if consolidation would occur in real time…

Yes, obviously realtime would help out there (but, how often do you actually need to do that?) Otherwise, when you draw that 2nd note, you just shorten the Note Expression window of the first one (which of course mutes its contents beyond its boundary, but doesn’t actually delete it).

yeah right. It just would work without thinking about it, and then wondering why the NE data isn’t played back.
Now its like not thinking about and wondering why the CC is acting weird :wink:

Thanks for 1), havent noticed the global settings menu entry :wink:

BTW, this is the similar behavior seen with VST Expression Maps. Someone at the SoundOnline forums was faced with this problem and had to find another solution, which forced him to switch DAWs. The Input Transformer doesn’t seem to have any effect on Expression Maps either.

?

you can always send Midi to vMidiPort, receive it @ another track and have Input Transformers, Midi Inserts etc…

To which DAW with Expression Maps routable through Midi Insert fx has he switched? :wink:

Well, it seems to me that that is good design… it allows you to use the Input Transformer, without it affecting also the incoming trigger notes (then, of course, once recorded, the Input Transformer is higher up the MIDI path, so never affects what is already inside a MIDI Part :wink: ).
However, I could see that maybe this should be an option (in the Input Transformer itself)

I honestly can’t remember what his specific situation was, but I do know that he did try using Bidule as a workaround. However, that still didn’t work for him, so he ended up switching to Reaper, where he was able to create a plugin with similar functions as VST Expression Maps (though not as powerful). I’ll see if I can dig out that thread where I was trying to help him without success. Maybe you guys have a better solution to his situation, though I doubt that he would go back to Cubase even if you did find one. He seems to be very happy with Reaper. I’ll post later.

Here’s the thread I spoke about, in case you’re still interested in learning about the issue he was having with Cubase and Expression Maps:

http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/showthread.php?t=39581

Quite different issue than mine. But there seems to be some detailed information needed about how live midi, playback midi, note expression and expression map midi is routed within one track…

Yeah, sorry about that. But I definitely agree about getting to know the details of how Note Expression, Expression Maps, etc. are routed. Would be nice to have that included in the manual.

I hope someone from steinberg does come back to http://www.steinberg.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=25012 and provides a detailed documentation.

There’s helpful schematics in the manual about audio, but not midi…

Nice thread!

+1
very interesting…