+1 for ALL working Musicians such as the last 2 posters ! - even the ones with opinions that differ from my own
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- We are all united under the umbrella of expressing ourselves… let us always remember that bond…
Maybe write some jazzy progressions? Something could develop from there…
Kin A 
Why?
In any case, you’re aiming at the wrong target there, given I’m one of the few around here that consistently buys current music. I even bought a couple Peas songs, as well as the Fergie album. That at least gives my opinion – that the BEP’s are lame – a bit of weight (but just a bit)
First, doug, let me clarify that when I typed, “yourself,” I didn’t mean you personally - I meant ‘you’ generically, as in applicable to me, et al, as well.
I haven’t purchased anything by the BEP’s… mainly because they are accessible on YT (and I ain’t rich enough to budget for more than I already buy).
To answer the question, ‘Why?’ IMO, it’s a purposeful empathy which allows one to possibly connect with that which one wouldn’t ‘readily’ connect with. For myself, it can produce an indirect benefit of allowing me to have an open-mindedness in such a way that ‘new ideas’ begin to fester. I don’t particularly like rap, but I like the (freedom) approach to writing rap for lyrical purposes (which I haven’t totally realized yet in a finished piece). I think I’m growing in that area.
IMO, it’s one step further from, ‘I either like it or I don’t’ - to ‘I like it or I don’t sufficiently understand it yet to be able to like it’ - in order to use new ideas in some other composition. Thus, the learning never stops. That is one reason why. For me, It contributes to my personal culture of expanding artistic inspiration/expression.
Besides, to quote Pablo Picasso, “Good artists copy, great artists steal.” I think there is a lot of music where I won’t readily connect, but if I listen to various facets of a piece, I’ll find something positive that will hold my desire to give a negative ‘thumbs down’ in abeyance for the wrong reasons: (insert negative comments about Prince, Sinead O’Connor, the BEP’s here). Artistically, I think there’s something to be gained from breaking one’s personal barriers.
Another reason why could be simply to break the pattern of an older generation disapproving music of a ‘new generation.’ Some people just don’t like learning about new things or they just plain can’t appreciate or tolerate change/something new/something different. We are, after all, creatures of habit. But we, as artists… we know better (don’t we?).
There’s no doubt that I will continue to do that 'cause I love jazz… - but I think I’d like to force myself into thinking more along the lines of creating something in the POP genre - where I’ll include what I know with something new (for which I have no clue yet).
Pile of crap is pretty much “music you don’t like” right? Marketing doesn’t force people to buy songs, the songs appeal to people who are not you.Is that so hard for you to comprehend.
IMO nothing is lamer than a musician doing a cut and paste on lyrics (in this case from a party song) to bolster their own negative b.s. Really,who couldn’t do this at any time for any genre?? You should really be ashamed.
So there is no room on this earth for people who are not you to enjoy music they consider fun??? Its so sad to see supposedly “creative” muscians post lame crap like this. I really feel sorry for you
Phil went on to say, Mr M:
Not bothered about the message aspect Tony, fine to have hope. No probs
The delivery is abysmal, the content is puerile (as in childish) and the music is nigh non-existent in the creative department. I was more interested in the quality (or lack of it) with my comments. Hope that explains my standpoint on this
Looks like the peas are not gonna record for a while which gives most of us hope 
Maybe they’ve gone off to study music and poetry. One never knows…
Mr M wrote: “Marketing doesn’t force people to buy songs”
This stuff (crap) is foistered upon people morning, noon and night, listen to a radio station for a few hours. It’s horrid. The lyrics are right across the board for the BEP, that’s the intellectual level in terms of lyric writing, check out a few more of their songs.
You feel sorry for me wanting higher standards do you? 
In my younger days I was not a big ‘radio fan’ like many others were in the SF Bay Area where I grew up. IN fact I purposely avoided radio because I always had this sort of ‘photographic memory’ with music. When it was time for me to record I could not tell my own thoughts from things I had heard elsewhere - so I simply avoided it completely.
Has anyone here ever thought of a nice riff - then go play it - and record it… just to have someone say “hey thats a nice version of XYZ bands chorus!” Grrrr - I hated that
How do you seperate your own thoughts from a passing tune you hear on the radio… anyhow thats my reason for avoiding radio HOWEVER !
When I heard I GOT A FEELING from Black Eyed Peas I was in Asia and went to every “english music” store asking for the latest from OASIS or GURELLAZ…
I had no idea it was Black Eyed Peas because it was… different…
That is one thing I admire about many bands out there - the ability to break the mold… that song could never in 500 thousand years be classified as “rap” - yet the band is often labeled as a “rap” band… interesting…
However I DO purchase the music that I listen to… in fact… my last 3 purchases were
- Bjork/Sugarcubes in 1993 - such good music for a fairy !
- Earth Wind and Fire greatest hits 1991 ish - more memories in 1 CD than possible
- Big Audio Dynamite #10 upping street - when it was released - because… it was different - and fresh at the time
Come to think of it… Big Audio Dynamite (with ex-members from great ‘The Clash’) had about the same amount of ‘RAP’ in it that the Black Eyed Peas have 
You tube Sample of Big Audio Dynamite → CLICK HERE
Remember - those are the people who helped shape ‘Combat Rock’ out there ‘rapping’ back in 1985 ! They also use Many MANY samples in their music… it was their trademark… Rock, Rap, all rolled into one… yet - not really any of the above… almost like teh Black Eyed Peas… many different music elements yet not falling under 1 category enough to be defined…
I did hear B.A.D. classified as “SKA” before… I never knew what that was…
Wow, M, that’s pretty strong… so, if phil or me or anyone doesn’t like a piece of music, we should just STFU? How is it “shameful” to express an opinion, especially when you can demonstrate in a direct way how the opinion is (for the person expressing that opinion) valid? Like quoting those stupid lyrics.
Nobody begrudges the fact that other people like this stuff.
If you or anyone else has a differing opinion about the BEP’s, then by all means, share it. But attacks on the people who don’t share your tastes aren’t helpful. Really, IMO, the only “shameful” or “lame” thing in this thread are the attempts to curtail freedom of speech and the open expression of opinion, even intensely negative ones. You’re not going to succeed in shutting us up anyway.
Hey Sav. Cool. When I heard it, I heard it as a lift from a Police song (that’s been tampered with) that I can’t quite place. This kind of thing bothers me along the lines of “Get your own tunes, damnit” which I don’t happen to think is unreasonable. You’re cool with it and I’m cool that you are, no worries
Cheers
Phil
That’s the whole point, doug, and now it’s circular and so perhaps you can understand it better: Why attack ANYONE (or any artist) for that matter? It serves no purpose and isn’t helpful. (To paraphrase the negative stuff), ‘Prince is gay, Sinead O’Connor is ugly, the BEP’s are lame’ - So… how’s that helpful?
In my opinion, to ‘put down’ others, especially those who aren’t present to defend themselves is even more lame. Nobody’s trying to shut anybody up, just trying to break down whatever it is to understand what motivates people to be ungraciously ‘dismissive’ in a public forum.
^ ^ ^ that’s actually very good advice from mom. She said it because she doesn’t want her child to ‘act a fool.’
People who think they don’t have to shut up simply because they have a right to their opinion doesn’t mean they avoid coming off as fools and are above being called out for their foolishness.
Going by your logic there should be no such thing as magazine CD reviews, Amazon album reviews, or any negative commentary about any artist simply because they aren’t present to defend themselves. That’s pretty ridiculous. Fact of the matter is this - People have opinions and have a right to voice them whether you like it or not. This is the music lounge. As far as I see it the only one’s that can say we can’t voice negative opinions here are the owners of the forum.
I don’t see why it’s so wrong for someone to voice their negative opinion, it’s part of human nature, it’s part of life. Just as it’s part of life to ignore the opinions of those you consider to be cynical a-holes 
As an artist I’ve gotten one review that was by some nobody indepent guy who created a website and decided to pick some band randomly off the net to review. We obviously weren’t his style in any way, and that’s fine. He had some bad things to say (mostly made fun of our outfits), and some good (actually thought the music was pretty good), but mostly sarcastic negativity. Did I care? Not one bit. Even bad publicity is good publicity especially for an unknown artist.
But the real reason I wasn’t upset in the least is because the greatest thing I’ve learned being a musician all these years is “You simply can not please everyone!”. Some will love it, some will hate it. I’m more inclined these days to laugh it off if I’d found someone saying some bad stuff about it, and I’d think “thanks for taking your personal time to talk about us on the net”.
There is no such thing as a utopian society where everyone respects everyone else and all negativity is banished in favor of purely positive thoughts.
Rev.
It seems you frequently go right to “freedom of speech” when the excessive and pointless negative aspects of comments are pointed out. This is followed by the pretense that the person who is pointing out the meaness that you frequetly enjoin is attempting to censor and shut off the “put down parade” in which you’re marching. This is not the case of course and I don’t see the need to play victim instead of justifying the mind numbing negativity in the first place. Maybe its too hard to have to explain why a musician has to have such a deep seeded need to be against another musician or style of music. Just easier to shift the discussion to your “freedm” to be so negative?
Of course who the hell would I be to stop discussion or how could I.?
When I say shameful, I specifically mean quoting the lyrics of a fellow muscian to make a blareingly simple point: you don’t like the music. Its shameful and lame because you could so this with pretty much any songwriter and you could do this with 100% of party style songs across the board. Maybe this is just a personal disgust but its lame as hell to me. The only way this makes sense is to post a link to ones own songs so the lyrics can be examined.
Come on – asserting an opinion about an group’s musical output is a far cry from saying someone is “ugly” or a man is “gay.”
I also wouldn’t consider such opinions to be “attacks.” And I STRONGLY disagree that they “serve no purpose” and aren’t “helpful.” There are numerous reasons why this is so; I know you know what they are.
In my opinion, to ‘put down’ others, especially those who aren’t present to defend themselves is even > more lame> . Nobody’s trying to shut anybody up, just trying to break down whatever it is to understand what motivates people to be ungraciously ‘dismissive’ in a public forum.
People who think they don’t have to shut up simply because they have a right to their opinion doesn’t mean they avoid coming off as fools and are above being called out for their foolishness.
I don’t get this. What on earth is “foolish” about expressing an opinion, whether positive or negative, about a work of art? You’re basically saying that only positive aesthetic opinions are worthy of being aired. I find THAT quite wrong-headed. To be honest, it’s not a point-of-view I would have expected you sir to have.
Why does a person have to be here to “defend” themselves against an unfavorable review? Anybody who has engaged in artistic endeavor for any length of time knows that no matter how good they are, or how many records they’ve sold or Grammy’s they’ve won, there’s going to be people who don’t like what they do, and for legitimate reasons. The idea that they must be everywhere present to put up some sort of “defense” against any and all of those opinions is silly.
Correct. “Freedom of speech” includes all speech (except for “fighting words” and "crying fire in a crowded theater).
This is followed by the pretense that the person who is pointing out the meaness that you frequetly enjoin in…
So … I express dislike for a popular music group…while YOU attack the intelligence, character, and integrity of fellow forum members… but it’s ME who is “mean.”
Again:
(I don’t want to be too dogmatic about this issue, because you know I really do like you, Mr M… always have, too )
I just don’t get this. Are you saying this because lyrics on the printed page don’t carry the same effect or weight as when sung, so they seem relatively weak? Personally, I don’t share Phil’s criticism of that lyric, since it IS just meant to be a fun little tune. But at least the poster is providing something objective to support his opinion.
I also don’t see why Phil should have to post his lyrics for his honest opinion to be valid… especially given he’s a strictly instrumental artist.
Cheers Doug I do occasionally write lyrics but I’d like to think they’re a little bit better than the BEP offering…
Yes ,I’m saying that the lyrics on the printed page to a pop, fun song ,(the very definition of out of context),is a cheap shot ,to me. The point from the poster seemed to be that BEP don’t deserve their sucess somehow because the lyrics lack gravitase for him. Pretty fair to wonder what his lyrics are like if he choses to use this non contextual yardstick : evaluating the lyrics of a pop r&b dance band apart from the entire song…The lyric from songs by Chic, almost all Motown,any 60’s surf band, all 80’s -90’s house music (I could go on and on) would fail by this measure.
I think this does nothing to support his opinion to me. Maybe I’m alone in this but I bristle when I see muscians do this to fellow muscians.
Also thanks for the kind words that otherwise took the wind out of my sails.
It all leaves me wondering… do lyrics really matter as much as some would like to think? There’s a plenty of songwriting gurus out there of course who’ll readily emphasise the need for good, well-crafted lyrics conforming to a certain set of criteria for a song to have any chance of chart success. However, it does seem that there’s a lot of real evidence, based on numerous chart-topping songs over the years, that would strongly suggest otherwise.
I feel pretty confident that if I was to present lyrics from any number of top-10 hits from the last decade or two to the songwriting fraternity, those that consider songwriting to be both an art and craft, that they’d most likley be dismissed by them without question. Hmm…