Dialogue and Text in Theater and Opera scores

I’m trying to come up with the best way to handle dialogue and related attached text in theater and opera scores in Dorico, and I’d like to hear from others what they use in their scenarios especially when in development.

My top-level goal here is to attach dialogue to a specific bar, and for Dorico to handle it’s vertical spacing, placing the text on top of all the other elements attached to the measure. I would like this text to be dynamically linked to the measure, in case said measure moves around (which happens a lot when in development). And it would be great to choose which layouts this dialogue text block appears in - I.E. I might have a Piano/Vocal layout that includes a rehearsal piano staff and vocal staves, and want the dialogue to appear above the top stave of a system. I also might have a Keyboard/Conductor score that has a different set parts, and perhaps also a Full score, where I would want the dialogue to appear above that system, even if the vocal staves don’t appear at the top of the score order.

What I’m currently doing:
In my full score, I attach dialogue as staff-attached text to the rehearsal piano right hand, (even if there are vocal or other staves above, because those staves may come and go if material is taken out, or if a staff break is added that causes those upper staves to be hidden - the Rehearsal Piano part is almost never hidden, so it’s a safe place to attach.). I then turn off “avoid collisions.” Then, if the text is at the start of a flow, I add a blank flow heading override to add appropriate vertical space (I do not put said text INSIDE that flow override in case material is added BEFORE this moment. Again, keeping text tied to the actual space in time in the music.). When text appears elsewhere in the piece, I must use manual vertical adjustments to make space for them.

Then, I need to duplicate these text blocks if I want them to appear in other layouts that DON’T include a Rehearsal Piano part, like in the full score, or in the conductor/keyboard part.

Obviously not ideal, not exactly speedy, and with many opportunities for errors. Of course, if the music wasn’t changing at all, I could use different text frames and music frames to keep Dorico in charge of spacing—but this won’t work when scores are constantly and quickly changing (I think?)

What I think might be useful:
It might be great to think of these dialogue text areas not as staff- or score-attached text, but as some other specifically defined type of object, behaving a bit like chord regions. Where, one could add the text ONCE at a specific location in time/specific measure (like a chord), then add a “text” region which would cause the text to appear at the top of the systems (or, if like chords, to the top of the selected staff) and in the layout of my choosing—wherever one has a ‘text’ region active. They might act almost like their own dynamic text frames, so that line breaks, and font sizes could be specific to different layouts and page sizes. They might have properties to show on the top, bottom, left, or right side of a system, and what order they appear in (a ‘stacking order’ perhaps?) in case there are more than one text block at the same time.

As a Finale convert, I very well might be over thinking and overdoing things that could be much simpler, and I’d love to hear how others are handling this.

Additionally I’ve read elsewhere that the development team has this on their list for down the line, and hope this might inspire thoughts.

Related topics:
Difficult Feature Request

Text in Opera Scores

Text Cues and dialogue

Text blocks in Opera Scores

Thanks!

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I’ve haven’t found a good solution for this for a show in development. All I have learned is to keep each song as a seperate file and not as a flow in a single file. This way if something has to change, at least it only effects that one song and doesn’t clobber everything else.

My last reading was a little less “developmental”. A tight rehearsal schedule meant changes were kept to a minimum. For this I attached cues as system text so they would appear in everyone’s parts. However, I hid these system text blocks in the piano/vocal part and instead added text areas in engraving mode so larger blocks of text (not just the cue) could be incorporated. The result was nice, but a bit fragile. Fortunately all the changes we needed to make could be made with a pencil and didn’t require re-engraving.

–Neil

At the moment, I don’t know of a good way to do this using text. I don’t think there’s a way to specify that text should go above other items automatically, and then if you move it manually in engrave mode, Dorico does not re-space things, as you’ve found.

You can make things better by using system attached text (shift-alt-x), which gives you a lot of control over where it appears:

I would create a new paragraph style (or more than one) just for this kind of text, so that you can adjust all instances of it globally at any point.

I had a go at using a 0-line staff for this - it kind of works but unfortunately the text does not space properly if there are multiple lines.

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Thanks @RichardTownsend - this looks promising, and I’ll play around a bit with this.

@RichardTownsend Unfortunately, this work around won’t work for me, as I actually need system-attached text already for other non-tempo-type entires, like routining (vamps, safeties, etc.), so I can’t “steal” the settings for just dialogue. But I’m hopeful the developers can come up with something! Maybe even just defining another category under “system-attached items” specific for dialogue, and then perhaps adding an “order” property to system-attached items, so one could force dialogue to be the top of others (like Tempi, rehearsal marks, etc.).

One strange work around - If one wants to have Dorico take care of spacing (to avoid dragging staves), the dialogue could be attached to the system ABOVE where the text goes, on the bottom staff, and then set it’s properties below. But obviously, this wouldn’t work the last system of a page if the text should appear on the next page. And this defeats the purpose of having the dialogue attached to where it actually occurs.

Just to check - you’re aware that different system-attached text items can have different paragraph styles - you can choose the paragraph style when you’re entering the words of the text?

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Thanks @RichardTownsend, yes, I use different paragraph styles for all my attached text, whether it be reoutining, dialogue, or other types of expressions not covered in Dorico’s built in tools. I think I’m missing what you are suggesting that the paragraph styles might help with here. Let me know! I’m new. Thanks!

Interesting discussion here. Quick one: You can have multiple system text boxes at the same rythmic position right? And well, if not, I’m guessing you can place each box one 32nd apart from each other, and adjust them in Engrave mode?

Yes, you can. But they will stack vertically, which may not give you the optimum layout.

Whoops, accidentally deleted this! Here it is again:

The main problem with letting Dorico handle spacing is that I can’t seem to figure out how to control the stack order. If I have a dialogue cue (staff attached text), a tempo indication, a system-attached text for routine (say “safety”), and a rehearsal mark, I can’t seem to control the ORDER. Dorico will always put the tempo and rehearsal mark above everything else, and any staff-attached text (the dialogue) will appear below those.

If I use @RichardTownsend tip above, assigning the dialogue as a system-attached text, I can at least control the order between those* but the tempo indications still appear above.

Additionally, since the layout settings control ALL system-attached text, I can’t use them to control which layouts I want dialogue cues to appear in because it will also control any other system-attached text (like routine instructions), and those need to appear in every layout.

(* it seems the order is controlled only through the order they were entered - I can’t find a way to change the oder after I’ve entered them, other than deleting and re-entering system-attached text to control the order.)

@nradisch - Yes, thanks for this tip - I also have to keep all cues (flows) as separate files, at least while in development, for those reasons you mentioned, and as there might be different people working on different cues at the same time - copyists in rehearsal, orchestrators, arrangers, etc.

I didn’t understand why using system-attached text for some things already would stop you using it for dialogue - so I wanted to check that you knew you could format different text items differently.

I understand the problem now, from your recent post.

You’re quite right, you can’t control the order at the moment.

That’s why I tried the zero-line staff option. The idea is to create an invisible staff above the top player in each layout and attach the dialogue text to that. Then the text appears above everything else, but only in the layouts where you add the zero line staff.

It’s quite involved, fiddly, and not 100% robust.

But if you would like to give it a go, search for ‘zero-line staff’ on the forum. With some effort you may be able to perfect it.

Essentially, you would create new instrument with a zero-line staff, which you can do with a file supplied by @FredGUnn .

Then you can add it to the relevant layouts and set it to be hidden when it’s empty, and attach the texts to it as staff-attached.

It’s possible to hide the bar lines, staff labels and the rests (with some fiddling) so it’s just showing the texts.

I was left with a few issues, but the biggest problem was that the spacing algorithms do not take into account text more than one line deep, so manual spacing adjustments are necessary. I thought, it’s not worth the effort if manual adjustments are still needed anyway.

I also could not stop there being a line at the start of a system between the zero line staff and the staff below - but there may be a way the forum gurus know to overcome that.

Reading what you said about only wanting the dialogue in certain layouts made me think this could be more of a runner.

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@RichardTownsend ah, that is super interesting. I will check that out and see what issues I run into. Thank you for that idea.