Different Groove Agent and Halion VSTs

[Aleque]

Hi

After finally getting Cubase 13 Pro and Absolute 6 I’m familiarizing myself with the software. I noticed that on my list of VST instruments there are two different versions of Halion (Halion 7 and Halion Sonic 7). And the same with Groove Agent (Groove Agent 5 and Groove Agent SE 5).

I saw the comparison chart and one of them is clearly better than the other. But the question is - why do I have two of each? Does the “inferior” version even have any special advantages over the “superior” one? Or am I supposed to delete Halion Sonic 7 and Groove Agent SE 5 and just stick with Halion 7 and Groove Agent 5?

And what does SE stand for?

And why is Halion 7 under Sampler category and Halion Sonic 7 is under Synth?

Thanks in advance.

[Martin90]

HALion 7 is a powerful sound creation system including a sampler, various, synth engines, scripting etc. It allows you to create your own instruments and sample libraries but can of course also be used to load and play existing content.
HALion Sonic 7 on the other hand is “just” a player for HALion content. It’s free and also comes bundled with Cubase so that you can start playing around with Iconica Sketch, for example (which is also part of the Cubase bundle) without the need to spend more money for HALion 7.

The differences between GA 5 and GA SE 5 are similar. GA 5 is the full version with many more functions than GA SE 5. Therefore, GA 5 must be purchased separately, e.g. as part of Absolute – same as HALion 7.

In the beginning, you probably don’t need all the advanced functions and features. Therefore I’d recommend to start with the small versions because they are less overwhelming.

[Aleque]

Hi Martin. Thanks for the reply. Oh, so they are basically the same thing, where one of them is a lighter version. Good idea to start with a lighter version, then. It seems a bit overwhelming, indeed.

Regarding: “Halion Common Presets Content” and
“Halion Sonic Factory Content”

So, when clicking one of the packages (what are they called, by the way?) and then double clicking one of the presets on the right side, there is nothing in the main menu like with the other instruments. Why is that?

I ask because I would like to modify the parameters of existing sounds, but the main menu is empty.

[Martin90]

@Aleque

So, when clicking one of the packages (what are they called, by the way?) and then double clicking one of the presets on the right side, there is nothing in the main menu like with the other instruments. Why is that?

I don’t know the official Steinberg terminology here but personally I call the packages “libraries”.

The “Macro” tab usually contains a user interface created by the library developer. It’s an optional component. Some instruments/programs, especially more simpler ones, don’t have a dedicated user interface. In this case, the parameters must be tweaked through the other HALion tabs depending on the type of content (samples, wave tables, granular settings, effects etc.). However, many libraries are protected so that these settings are not accessible to the user.

[raino]

@Martin90

In the beginning, you probably don’t need all the advanced functions and features. Therefore I’d recommend to start with the small versions because they are less overwhelming.

I’m gonna disagree a bit with @Martin90 on this. I’d go with the full version to start. You can use it pretty much the same as Sonic and ignore the advanced features. But if you later decide you want to use an advanced feature it will be available. Where if you start with Sonic you are limited to what Sonic is capable of.

Also I don’t know if this is still the case but at one time the Sonic version couldn’t access all the libraries available to the full version I had.

[Martin90]

I don’t disagree. It’s most likely a matter of personal preference. Personally, I couldn’t see the wood for the trees when I first had to use HALion and got lost several times. Sonic 3 was much easier to handle for me back then. It obviously also depends on the features and contents required for the projects you work on and whether they are only available in the full HALion.

[Aleque]

@Martin90

However, many libraries are protected so that these settings are not accessible to the user.

Protected in what way?

@Martin90

In this case, the parameters must be tweaked through the other HALion tabs depending on the type of content (samples, wave tables, granular settings, effects etc.)

I think I found something by accident - Quick Controls window .

Are there other ways to modify individual HS Factory and HAL Factory patches / presets other than using the Quick Controls window?

I know I can combine sounds using the Slot Rack, but I was wondering if I can tweak a sound further inside of Halion’s interface, like for instance by adding an LFO, editing an envelope or using a stepper (like in Massive VST).

I know these are the newbie questions, and I should probably watch some beginner tutorials or take a look inside the manual. But if you guys have a quick answer, that would be awesome.

Another thing that confuses me. If HS is an inferior version of HAL, how come there are 1335 factory presets inside of HS Factory and HAL Factory has 270?

And is the content of those two libraries completely unique?

Because I was wondering if I could uninstall HS at some point when I learn the basics and just use HAL, instead.

But will that mean that the HS Factory “library” and all of its 1335 factory preset will be gone as well?

(Or maybe the HS Factory library and all of its presets have nothing to do with Halion Sonic?)

@raino

I’d go with the full version to start. You can use it pretty much the same as Sonic and ignore the advanced features. But if you later decide you want to use an advanced feature it will be available. Where if you start with Sonic you are limited to what Sonic is capable of.

Raino has a good argument and I would like to stick to HAL, later on, and forget about HS, but if HS has some unique content that HAL does not have or any special advantages over HAL, then maybe I should keep both?

EDIT: I just found additional 2 libraries. “Sonic Selection” and “HS3 Combis”. And now I’m even more confused. I’m trying to understand if these libraries have anything to do with the limited version of HAL or not.

[Martin90]

@Aleque

Protected in what way?

Depends on the library. For example, many libraries don’t allow you to access the scripts, the samples and/or further more low-level parameters because the developers often invest a lot of time to tweak everything and sell this as part of the library.
HALion provides a mechanism to lock user access of certain parts of a library.

@Aleque

I know I can combine sounds using the Slot Rack, but I was wondering if I can tweak a sound further inside of Halion’s interface, like for instance by adding an LFO, editing an envelope or using a stepper (like in Massive VST).

Yes, these functions are available in the different sections of zones.

But will that mean that the HS Factory “library” and all of its 1335 factory preset will be gone as well?

The content libraries are separate installation packages. If you uninstall the HS7 application, the content is still there and is available in HALion 7. You can remove it independently via the Steinberg Library Manager.
If your disk space allows it and if you find the content useful, I’d keep both.

@Aleque

I just found additional 2 libraries. “Sonic Selection” and “HS3 Combis”. And now I’m even more confused. I’m trying to understand if these libraries have anything to do with the limited version of HAL or not.

The Sonic Selection comes with Cubase and “HS3 Combis” is part of HALion 7, I think.
The naming is a bit confusing because Steinberg changed it for the HALion editions. Formerly, HALion Sonic SE 3 was the free edition while HALion Sonic 3 (without SE) came with additional content had to be purchased. HS3 Combis was not part of the free HALion Sonic SE 3 but of the paid products. Now it’s still available as part of HALion 7 and the HALion Sonic 7 Collection (not to be confused with HALion Sonic 7). It’s actually relatively easy to grasp, isn’t it?

[Aleque]

@Martin90

because the developers often invest a lot of time to tweak everything and sell this as part of the library

Hmm, could that give any copyright problems when using my music in YouTube videos, for instance? I mean, if they are so eager to protect their sound by preventing anyone fiddling with them.

Maybe I am overthinking this, but I heard a few stories about Youtube and copyright infringements, where some people advise you to stay away from certain sounds and samples.

EDIT: Now that I remember, I think they said something like: “stay away from already premade melodies and vocals (royalty-free or not) - but it’s ok to use percussion samples and something less distinctive”. But that’s a whole another topic.

@Martin90

Yes, these functions are available in the different sections of zones.

Awesome

@Martin90

If your disk space allows it and if you find the content useful, I’d keep both.

I have plenty of space. I’ll keep all of it, then.

@Martin90

It’s actually relatively easy to grasp, isn’t it?

I’m glad you know these things, because it sounds like a riddle or a puzzle.

So, in conclusion, I keep all the libraries and once I am more confident with Halion and Groove Agent, and if I’m tired of the restrictions, then I can remove or disable their limited versions?

And to remove SE editions of both I can just safely remove them from the download assistant without breaking anything? And then I leave the “Content” ones?

I swear, this Steinberg Download Assistant needs a total revamp. I could write an essay on how many things are annoying about it.

And finally, a bit on topic again. When using Halion, on the right side there is a list of presets in the Media section. To pick a preset I could double-click one. Or I can first select something on the list and then use arrow keys up and down and press Enter.

I also tried binding keys to “Track Preset: Next” and “Track Preset: Previous”, but when pressing those keys it just switches my entire VST out with something else, like Grand 3. This behavior seems random, because sometimes it does actually stay in Halion and switches the preset. But the problem is: 1). it takes longer to load and 2). I can’t see the selected preset in the Media section, anymore.

Any idea if there is a smarter way?

I am considering to set up an AHK script that emulates “up and enter” or “down and enter”, using a single key, if there is no better solution.

[Martin90]

@Aleque

Hmm, could that give any copyright problems when using my music in YouTube videos, for instance? I mean, if they are so eager to protect their sound by preventing anyone fiddling with them.

The content can usually be used for commercial purposes. You’ll find these kind of restrictions in almost all sample libraries including those for NI Kontakt. This is no big issue. Don’t overthink it. It’s just a measure to protect the basic sample material.

@Aleque

So, in conclusion, I keep all the libraries and once I am more confident with Halion and Groove Agent, and if I’m tired of the restrictions, then I can remove or disable their limited versions?

Yes. But please keep in mind that the small and full editions are separate plugins. If you use the smaller ones in Cubase projects for example, you’ll get error messages when opening these projects after the plugins have been uninstalled. Cubase doesn’t automatically replace them with the full versions.

@Aleque

And to remove SE editions of both I can just safely remove them from the download assistant without breaking anything?

Yes, but you can’t uninstall stuff using the the Download Assistant. Just use the Windows/Mac system panel to uninstall the applications.

@Aleque

And then I leave the “Content” ones?

Yes. The content can be removed with the Library Manager if desired.

@Aleque

I swear, this Steinberg Download Assistant needs a total revamp. I could write an essay on how many things are annoying about it.

Agreed. These different tools to do related stuff is cumbersome.

@Aleque

I also tried binding keys to “Track Preset: Next” and “Track Preset: Previous”, but when pressing those keys it just switches my entire VST out with something else, like Grand 3.

Do you mean inside Cubase? If yes, that’s the expected behavior. Track presets are not limited to a single VST. To limit a track to HALion, just load it into an instrument track, click on the keyboard icon to open HALion, and browse to the presets there.

[Aleque]

I appreciate all of your help.

I have uninstalled Halion and GA (lesser versions) but now when using a full version of GA I get this error when opening 4th patch. I have no idea what’s going on:

I also forgot to mention that I also just uninstalled older Cubase versions (7 and 7.5) and everything else associated with the old installation. Could that have caused the problem?

Here is another error I get. I’m not sure if it’s related to loading defective patches:

And now I also get errors in Halion, too:

Have I screwed up majorly by uninstalling other versions of Halion and GA?

[Martin90]

@Aleque

I appreciate all of your help.

You’re welcome.

Is “Groove Agent ONE” listed in the “Goove Agent” tab of the Library Manager? Maybe you removed it together with the old components of Cubase 7.5. According to the MediaBay, the missing sample is part of this library.

[Aleque]

Halion also gave me the same problems when opening presets from HS Factory library. So what I did was, I re-downloaded and reinstalled those 2 items (using the Assistant) and now it seems to be working, so far.

I just don’t understand how it could have happened. How could uninstalling limited versions of Halion and GA, and then uninstalling Cubase 7 and 7.5 and all of the VSTs that came with the old versions create those problems.

[Martin90]

I don’t really know. According to this page, Grove Agent ONE was a separate package bundled with Cubase until version 7.5. As of version 8, it was merged into the Groove Agent (SE) content library. If you uninstalled Cubase 7.5 including all its contents, Grove Agent ONE may also had been uninstalled and therefore the sample was missing. Reinstalling the GA content has brought it back. But it’s just a guess.

[Aleque]

That kind of makes sense, yes. That one of those content packages or libraries shared the same presets amongst each other, and once I uninstalled some of those packages then it prevented the presets from loading properly in the other packages.

It’s a bit confusing. Again, it could have been avoided, if the download assistant could see, that some content was missing.

And a quick question before I’m done with this topic. I press play in GA and it plays the percussions. Do you know why GA stops playing when I switch to “Anna” preset? What does that type of preset do?

[Martin90]

@Aleque

It’s a bit confusing. Again, it could have been avoided, if the download assistant could see, that some content was missing.

Absolutely. Unfortunately, the Download Assistant doesn’t consider dependencies between packages. Therefore it’s easy to get error messages due to missing components that need to be installed separately.

@Aleque

What does that type of preset do?

Is this a screenshot of the preset browser in Cubase? If you load a different track preset, it might change the VST instrument and/or the preset inside that instrument. In this case it unloads the current settings in e.g. Groove Agent and load the new selected ones.