Engrave mode - overlaps

Probably a numpty question but I’m having real difficulty with Engrave mode. Maybe I just don’t understand some basic principles. The ‘manual’ has been of no help at all, neither have the various videos.
I’ve attached an image of what’s happening. I have overlaps that I can’t eliminate. Actually, I did manage to get the first page(s) to do the right thing but lost track of what I’d doen. All it really did was to move the problem into following pages.
Currently I am lost! If anyone feels thay can help, please be sure to explain in language that any numpty can understand. Thanks.

It looks like you might have some manual system/frame breaks. If you turn signposts on, do you see any frame or system breaks?

And what is your casting off set to?

Better yet, can you attach the project?

The basic problem here, Les, is that Dorico is trying to squeeze too much music onto the page. Your picture doesn’t allow us to see exactly why that is the case, particularly because it’s so tiny!

The first thing I would try is to go to the Page Setup page of Layout Options and either increase the page size, e.g. if you’re currently using Letter size, try Part or Concert, which are both a bit bigger. If you can’t print such exotic paper sizes on your home printer and don’t plan to print the score via a bureau, then instead look at reducing the staff size a bit. If you’re currently using e.g. rastral size 3, try reducing to size 4 or size 5 – but don’t go any smaller than size 6, as that will make the score hard to read.

If you find that you can’t get two systems on the page comfortably after reducing the rastral size, you should reconsider your desire to put two systems on the page, and instead enlarge the rastral size to the point that the music looks balanced on the page with a single system on the page.

The other thing you may find is that you have increased the values on the Vertical Spacing page of Layout Options to try to space things out. Make sure that the values for staff-to-staff etc. gaps are no larger than 5 or 6 spaces; if you’re going for a tight vertical look, then gaps of 4 or even 3 spaces could be appropriate.

If this doesn’t help, please attach the project so we can take a look and see what’s actually going on.

These two videos, both about an hour long although extensively time-stamped, are really good on covering vertical spacing and how to use the various tools available in Dorico:

Hi Everyone who’s tried to help.

DanielMuzMurray: I have never heard of ‘casting off’ except in knitting!

dsspeadbury: This sounded more like a numpty-level explanation but I neither know what ‘rastral’ means but, more particularly, I can’t find my way to Page Setup of Layout options. There’s nothing in the menus or clickety buttons that suggests how to proceed.

I’m using Dorico 4.3.

Orchestra Sinestro.dorico (1.5 MB)
I hope I did the right thing to upload the project!

I’m obviously missing something pretty fundamental. I know my music but this engraving thing-a-me seems to be beyond my feeble grasp!

Thanks for your patience and any help that can move me forward.

You might well benefit from looking at our First Steps guide, and in particular the chapter starting from the page below: if you follow the links at the bottom right of each page along, you’ll see the different steps required to take a 4-page piece down onto 2 pages, and the navigation within the Layout Options dialog necessary to do so.

(For complete reference, the relevant instructions for changing the staff size are here, an explanation of space/rastral size is here, a definition of “rastral size” is here, and reference material for Layout Options is here.)

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Since you already have reduced staff size (rastral size) to 8, my thinking is that the layout will not bear two systems (lines of music) on an A3 size sheet. And the conductor would have great difficulty reading your music if you could reduce the staff size further.

My solution would be to increase the rastral size to 3 and put one system per page.

Orchestra Sinestro Adapted01.dorico (1.1 MB)

Question: Do you need chord symbols on every part? Because using Chords & Symbols option of Layout Options to show them only above the top part will allow you to show two systems per page for your original layout. (Not sure whether you want the symbols on each instrumental part printed out.)

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Lillie_Harris: Many thnks for pointing me in the right direction!

I eventually sorted the overlap out by unchecking ‘Automatically resolve collision between adjacent staves and systems’ somewhere amongst ‘options’. That seems completely counter-intuitive but it seems to have worked.

Now I’m facing an issue related to Derrek’s reply - the chord symbols.

What I’m actually trying to do is produce a straight-forward PDF of the score (nominally A4). I’d (ideally) like to have the chord symbols somewhere in that but not necessarily everywhere. I haven’t found out how to restrict them to a single ‘place’ yet.

As things stand, the chord symbols are cluttering the whole thing and I’d really like to clear that out. I don’t much care whether the chord symbols are at the top or at the bottom or somewhere in between.

I love Dorco but navigation (for a numpty like me) is a major headache, especially when the help files/videos are full of mysterious ‘jargon’ - like ‘frames’ and ‘systems’ and the like. I have no doubt they have obvious meanings to those who understand them. I worked for many years with military organizations where jargon and mnemonics were rife. I always had to stop procedings and ask what things meant. (In a lot of cases, only one person in the room could provide an answer!)

Anyway, no criticism intended but, if anyone could help me on this next step (controlling the chord symbols), I’d be immensely grateful.

Oh Cool! I’ve cracked it! Kudos to Derrek!

Many thanks to all and sundry. This’ll help me enourmously as I continue my musical adventures.

To control which instruments should show chord symbols, go to Setup mode and look at the Players panel on the left-hand side. Select each instrument in turn, and right-click to show a context menu. One of the submenus in the context menu that appears is Chord Symbols: go in there.

If you want that player to show chord symbols in the score, choose Show For All Instruments (which means “all instruments held by this player”). If you don’t want chord symbols to appear above that player’s staff, choose Hide For All Instruments.

While this may have changed the layout of music in this project, it’s not necessarily going to be the right solution all the time. I really would recommend watching at least some sections of the Discover Dorico YouTube videos I posted earlier in the thread, so you have the opportunity to get more familiar with what’s going on behind the scenes, so you can make more informed decisions about how to achieve the results you want.

Take a look on this page:

It’s in a section of the manual called “Notation reference”, which is where you’ll find most information that’s specific to the various types of notations. There’s a “Chord symbols” chapter, and inside that chapter, a “Positions of chord symbols” section – all the instructions for changing where chord symbols appear are there.

By any chance was this file imported. I ask because normally added chord symbols only appear on “rhythm” instruments (keyboards, string bass, and the like) unless one enters them on a specific staff, and one must (as Daniel says) adjust the appearance of the symbols on other staves in the Setup panel.

Glad you found the way to set them to show above the top staff, but I wonder what your instrument parts will look like when you get around to formatting those.

Thanks to everyone that has contributed here. Yes, I still have a lot to learn about the mechanics of Dorico. At least I now feel that I am back ‘in control’. :grinning: