OMG, I think that I have lost, conservatively a solid year and a half worth of accrued hours trying to get around this freaking Mirrored Mixing “road block!”
I have been begging Avid & SB for years to settle this issue. Avid says it’s SB. SB doesn’t say anything! As a result, I have been shopping for years for an affordable alternative to get out from under Avid’s tyranny. I bought Euphonix BECAUSE I wanted an open all inclusive platform to work with Nuendo and any other DAW available. I was crushed when Avid bought Eucon and “locked everything down.” I’ve been looking for a way out ever since!
If SB made an “Artist Series” version of Nuage, I’d have left the Artist Series the instant it was released!! Since they didn’t (and/or won’t), I was forced to seriously consider a 25 fader (three S1s and a Dock) S1 system BECAUSE THEY CLAIMED TO HAVE SOLVED THE MIXING MIRROR PROBLEM! I would’ve preferred to do a pair of S3s with a Dock. But, of course, Avid won’t allow that. In any case, this claim, of course, turned out not to be true (Hell, they didn’t even fix the Systemic Crashing of Nuendo issue!) and so I didn’t purchase it.
I’ve spent the last 3 days trying to convince myself to give the Qcon Pro X a try. But it’s quirks, limitations and horrible product support reputation have made this a really hard sell. I also looked at The Slate Raven and D-Touch on a touch screen. But I really want the tactile feedback of real faders. So I started looking at Presonus’ Faderport 24. Now I’m dealing with the same issues of limitations and ergonomics. It seems, and I am positive that this was Avid’s goal all along, that the only viable solution was to drop Nuendo/Cubase and just switch to Pro Tools. Then my hardware would do everything it was designed to do. The fact that I have fought this battle for years show’s my clear opposition to ever submitting to “Avid’s Rule!” I’ll go back to keyboard and mouse first!
But the bottom line is that the Artist Series is, unfortunately the ONLY SYSTEM that fits my space and changing ergonomic requirements. If it weren’t for that damned “Mirror Mixing Impasse” between Avid & SB, I could’ve probably cured cancer by now!
Thanks for the clarification Fredo.
Wish Steinberg talked to Yamaha in order to create alternatives to the Avid S1 and S3 series, above that there’s already the Nuage, I would sell my S3 and dock in a blink of an eye.
Isn’t the Nuage a closed protocol? It’s my understanding that the Yamaha DM2000 also had a closed protocol, not the mcu one, am I correct?
Actually, from a economical point of view, it is very simple.
Creating a Yamaha S1 or S3 would cost as much as the Avid S1 or S3.
The features, and what the units can do, would be comparable.
So the result would be that they would be competing Avid with as 100% similar product.
If they would build an S1 or S3 which can do more and is better than the AVid S3/S1, then the unit would be much higher priced, and it would only work “better” with Steinberg products. So the marked is simply not big enough.
Nuage is using a closed protocol (a specific sdk) for communicating with Cubendo. Hence why Nuage is so deeply integrated into Nuendo/Cubase.
Nuage also has a PT Bridge, so you can control a PT system.
Unfortunately, due to the Avid restrictions, that protocol isn’t as deeply integrated as Eucon.
I’d say you can compare it a bit with the Macky Contol protocol.
So, what you’re trying to say is that most of us are stuck with the Eucon protocol, right?
The problem is that we’re always addressing Avid and Steinberg to try and solve the issues.
Just recently, avid came out with an update that finally addressed an old issue, the numeric value discrepancy between the controller hardware and Nuendo Soft faders, take a guess who they blamed for that long time bug?
Also, I’ve been buggin Avid for a while now, they literally sell this Hardware as being full (?) Cubendo compatible, I’m sure you guys at Steinberg are aware of that.
Problem is, after I leave this forum and enter the Avid one, the ball is immediately send to this court, seems like a game of hot potato.
Anyways, thanks for the info Fredo, I wish both companies would find a way for better communication, like you said, the market is too small for a Steinberg/Yamaha solution.
That is EXACTLY what Avid is doing! They make their hardware “SORT OF” work for every DAW that isn’t Pro Tools. So if Yamaha would offer us the exact opposite, a hardware product that works great for us without concern for Pro Tools, You’re saying THAT market isn’t big enough?
That makes no sense. Based on that logic, there shouldn’t be Apple AND Microsoft, Mercedes AND Lexus, Iphone AND Galaxy or every cell phone provider in existence!
I remember remote controlling Apogee preamps via Maestro using a Euphonix MC Pro running Nuendo 5 all via Eucon. It was brilliant. This was when ProTools was still using 128 step Mackie protocols.
I can’t imagine Yamaha/Steinberg can compete here, unfortunately. It was a bummer when Avid bought Euphonix.
I just tested this numeric value issue. I have the latest version of Eucon and the Avid Control App. THIS ISSUE REMAINS! THE CALIBRATION BETWEEN NUENDO AND THE ARTIST SERIES IS STILL OFF.
N10 EQ Mid. reads 2000 Avid EQ Mid reads 2010
N10 EQ Hi reads 12000 Avid EQ Hi reads 12,028
This is what I’m talking about. They said the fixed the crash. They didn’t. They said they fixed the Mixer Mirroring Issue. They didn’t. The Control, Alt and Win Button features (new on S1) don’t work in Nuendo. VCA spill ONLY works with PT (not that I care. Our Channel Expand feature kills that pitiful excuse for forward thinking)! WE NEED OUR OWN MID LEVEL HARDWARE.
I’m not completely sure about that, but here are some details.
Euphonix originaly developed EuCon to connect System 5 audio mainframe to the control surface.
Later, EuCon device driver was developed for various DAW’s. There were a couple of buttons on the surface to select the DAW in control (like in Avid S6). Ephonix developed Hybrid pilot software exactly for this purpose, to connect to other DAWs.
Before System 5 there was Euphonix CS3000. That system used network protocol but not EuCon.
I was in the market for a new studio console at that time, and this was one of the first, if not the first hybrid system on the market, very attractive. But it required a huge amount of power and it was very loud, and also too expensive.
I guess Steinberg, together with Euphonix, developed EuCon client adapter, which provided much better DAW control from the Euphonix hybrid channel strip than standard driver did. You did choose to install the adapter manually. Initially it was available to buy from Euphonix website.
Merging Technologies Pyramix also had its own Eucon client adapter, while other DAWs used standard EuCon driver, automaticaly installed with console software.
You are forgetting the most important problem:
Yamaha is not allowed to use the EUCON protocol in their hardware.
So Yamaha would build a surface that might work perfectly with Cubendo, but will never work properly with Avid software.
You might be correct about details and timeframe, but I know for a fact that Eucon was a close collaboration with Steinberg.
Martin Stahl worked for a few years in California on behalf of Steinberg.
His job was visiting the big industry studios and gathering information (what do the pro’s want/need?) for future developments for Nuendo.
He spend half of his time @ Euphonix, Studying the Euphonix automation, and developing Eucon.
I remember a few meetings with Martin where he proposed & explained the blueprint of the Eucon protocol.
Another person who played an important role was Steve Tushar, he was the first one having an MC5, and first-hand tester for the collaboration between Euphonix & Steinberg.
Anyway, Avid did a brilliant move buying Euphonix, Marthin Stahl & Lars Baumann. (Who was the Nuendo product manager at that time)
Martin & Lars are the two people who designed the S6 and S3 for Avid …
Who cares if it works with Avid hardware? You’re missing the point. Avid hardware DOESN’T WORK with OUR DAWS. We need hardware that does. We don’t care if it’s based on Eucon. In fact WE’D PREFER IT NOT TO HAVE ANY ASSOCIATION WITH EUCON! We want our own SB based platform for Cubase/Nuendo at an Artist Series/ S1 to S3 price range.
Well a S3 isn’t that much cheaper than a Nuage fader unit…
But then the fader unit is a bit to large really to compete with the smaller firm factor (although I really like the Nuage a de what It does).
Euphonix presented EuCon at AES 2006 in San Francicso.
The authors of that AES paper were 5 programming engineers and product development managers from Euphonix. Most of them remained with Avid when it bought Euphonix.
Nothing in that paper indicates that EuCon is a joint development of Euphonix and Steinberg.
Well, the only thing we can do is ask the concerned people themselves.
Lets do that next time we bump into each other at a convention.
However, I have found some old articles which might give a hint:
An old Sound On Sound article which talks about Martin being @ Euphonix.
[…] And very publicly placing the company’s Project Manager for Post-production, Martin Stahl, in LA with Euphonix to investigate the needs of the LA post-production market has clearly helped to build a better product. […]
This is from Pro-Music-News talking about the 115th AES Convention.
[…] Nuendo 2.1 being displayed linked to a Euphonix System 5 mixing console, Steinberg and Euphonix showed the continuity of their long-term cooperation. […]
This comes from Mix Magazine.
[…] Euphonix is closely working with Steinberg and other DAW manufacturers to enable full MC control. At recent trade shows,
Euphonix demonstrated work-in-progress with Nuendo and is in discussionwith other DAW makers. […]
[…] If digital console manufacturers are actively pursing the potential of controlling external workstations, then what of the DAW makers? Forexample, Steinberg continues to work with Euphonix to refine EuConfunctionality. But, according to Martin Stahl, Steinberg’s project
coordinator for post-production, the firm offers […]
[…] Der Autor:
Nach einer Erweiterung des Aufgabenfeldes im technischen Product Management ging Stahl im februar 2004 als projektmanager Post Porduction für Steinberg nach Loas Angeles. Für das Euphonix Project S5 MC is er zudem als technischer Berater tätig. […]
[…]Das Entwicklungsteam bei Steinberg bringt Nuendo momentan bei, das Eucon Protokol von Euphonix zu sprechen und zu verstehen. […]
If the price is as low as you hinted at then either Yamaha is taking a fairly big hit on these devices (or making no money), or they really should have their MSRP adjusted.
Last time I talked face-to-face to an official from, ehum… let’s call it “Steinberg OR Yamaha”… the person told me that the market for Nuage was close to zero. Only very few are buying them relative to Eucon devices. It’s basically an uphill battle despite Yamaha now apparently trying to promote them for broadcast as well.
The way I see it they should just lower the prices officially to match the lower price of Nuendo and try to get more of the market. There’s not really much of a brand to protect when it comes to the controllers. Nobody is going to not get a Nuage because the brand was damaged by a low price… We’d already be on Nuendo in order to even consider the controller.
Note, I am NOT saying the price is similar or even close to a S3 (of course it isn’t). But you get a lot more with a Nuage fader unit than what you get with a S3 for use with Nuendo so you need to factor that in as well. I would NEVER choose a S3 over a Nuage despite the higher cost.
What I AM saying is that a S3 at around 5000€ is expensive enough to be a bad choice compared to a Nuage fader unit. It has only one positive factor, small size.
But I do doubt that they are sold at MSRP in most cases.
Almost no pro audio gear ever has been in my experience.
