Feature Suggestion - Combine Write and Engrave Mode

Dorico
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For those of us who may be mouse/trackpad and computer keyboard oriented, it would be nice to be able to write notation as well as make it look “right” on the page at the same time. I realize this is a drastic change from the process designed in Dorico but that was a huge advantage in Finale from which I crossed over to Dorico. I am not criticizing Dorico but simply making a suggestion.

The “more that things are streamlined, the better” is a decent generality to use with most software. For example, I need to go to multiple places to find properties for beams depending on whether I am interested in appearance or function. Same with fonts and many other attributes where as being able to address all attributes about an item simultaneously would be a huge time saver. To expand on this, when adjusting things like text frames, being able to copy and past a frame with all the formatting and text included would be quite helpful.

As a non-notational software programmer of yesteryear, I do understand what I am asking and I do not do so without respect for the tremendous amount of work and coding completed to create this great product. Likewise, as the same programmer of yesteryear, I know that my clients really appreciated things to be organized in a manner that all attributes of a given item, token or variable. were grouped together.

Does anyone else see value in this or am I just caught in an old-school way of thinking? Thanks, in advance, for any feedback!

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Dear Kent – Respectfully, this is contrary to the most basic design of Dorico. This team worked on “modeless” Sibelius for many years before getting a chance to start over with a new design.

One reason for these two modes to be separate is editing security. In Sibelius it is far too easy to change notes and other things accidentally when you are just editing the appearance of the page. For myself I find it also simplifies and streamlines the interface when there are fewer actions available at a time, grouped by function.

Granted, Dorico’s design does force you to ignore a lot of formatting concerns while you enter all the music first, and I know that really goes against the grain for Finale users who are used to having to do layout much more manually. And of course there is the issue of wait time when switching modes. But as a long-time user of all three of the major programs, I am pretty certain that your thoughtful design idea will not be possible in Dorico. And actually I disagree that “being able to address all attributes about an item simultaneously would be a huge time saver”. I think what that saves is rethinking rather than productivity time. Having gotten used to the working methods of all three, Dorico is the clear winner for both productivity and convenience.

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Hi @kasky1 , beside the above post by @Mark_Johnson , with whom I totally agree, you have the possibility to open the projects in multiple windows (better with 2 displays), and activate for example, on the first, Write mode, and on the second Engrave mode, so that you can easily make your adjustments in the desired window.

Here the Manual:

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I’ve never tried this. Does it ever cause any “weirdness” to ensue?

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I am going to respectfully disagree with this being a mindset vs. time saver. We all work in different ways so we need to be respectful of that as I tried to do in my post. Perhaps some of us can multi-task better than others…perhaps not. I do not find that back and forth between mouse and keys a time saver and neither is the travel distance of the pointer across the screen when moving from one mode to another or, as in Engrave, moving between note and frame selection tools. I’ve enlisted some advice from a different post regarding moving back and forth between Engrave tools using keyboard shortcuts but it is not terribly efficient, ever, to move back and forth from a pointer device to the computer keyboard in my humble opinion. Thank you for your input.

I am not afraid to speak against a fundamental philosophy of a piece of software’s design. By doing this we move beyond what is into what could be in the future. I believe some of the folks that created the FB page for Finale users crossing over even encouraged us to do such things so that all possibilities for improvement are considered.

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I will try this and see what happens - seems an odd work around to me but so did many of the Finale workarounds…

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Do you use both hands on the mouse or something? Having one hand on the mouse and the other on the keyboard, you’ll find Ctrl + 1, Ctrl + 2, Ctrl + 3, Ctrl + 4 quite fast. You’re choosing the slowest approach because you want to.
Having write mode and engrave mode seperately is a decision they made, for good reasons.

Absolutely agree on this.

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While I don’t have any issues with the two separate modes, and have grown used to the workflow, I do agree that it would be nice to have all properties visible at once—or have the option to see “write” properties in one panel with “engrave” properties available in a simultaneous separate tab. Some things, like hiding elements or adjusting tremolos on groups of tied notes that are only available in Engrave mode do require my addressing them immediately rather than being able to postpone adjusting until the layout stages. With large scores it takes time to switch modes, and sometimes it is impossible to see and/or even select these items for editing until a certain amount of casting off has occurred.

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I didn’t say it wasn’t for a good reason but I think it could be successfully implemented otherwise.

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Having both windows open simultaneously on different screens is helpful. I appreciate the suggestion, judddanby.

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That was @Christian_R. I certainly appreciate the “shout-out”, @kasky1, but credit where credit’s due.

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@Christian_R: Multiple project windows is helpful - thank you! However, I just had Dorico crash for the very first time since installing it when having both project windows open (Write and Engrave). I was able to duplicate that same crash. Crash reports sent to Steinberg and Apple.

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This.

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Make sure you also generate Dorico Diagnostics and post them in this thread. This way, the team will be able to help you directly!

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Dorico is its own software and works the way way the designers make it work. To try and force it to be like another program just isn’t very realistic. It really is a mindset issue. As I posted somewhere else, enter everything, notes, lyrics, slurs, articulations, everything before you ever even think about adjusting the layout and look. (Things may look “messy” on the screen until everything is entered. I advise entering notation in Galley view). Once the “data” (all notation elements) is entered, then make “macro” adjustments in Notation, Layout and Engraving options. Then, for those “one off” changes, look to the properties settings at the bottom panel of Write mode. If those changes don’t get the look you are after, then, and only then go to Engraving mode and make the finer adjustments. After setting up a template with all the settings I wanted, now, nine times out of 10 I never need to go into Engraving mode and even then, maybe only to adjust one or two items. Forget how you’re use to doing things if you’re going to use Dorico and do it in the very logical way Dorico works. Yes, I complained a lot when I switched from Sibelius, but give it time, it makes more sense to do it this way.

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It is my experience that many people who complain about going into engrave mode frequently end up doing so unnecessarily when there are better ways of accomplishing certain tasks. They often do so because they have tried to go in themselves and figure things out and end up missing things from the basic Dorico training.

For instance, people who skip the documentation and try to jump right in by themselves frequently do not know how to use the caret and grid to enter objects at any bar and beat position, and how to group dynamics together so that they are in correct vertical alignment with each other without having to do so manually. Those operations are all done in “Write” mode. Going into “Engrave” mode for 90% of users is usually just something for fine tuning, where you want to get rid of a collision or something by moving a dynamic a hair in a particular direction.

Of course there are other users who have to switch between modes much more frequently, such as users who write scores that more heavily make use of graphic objects, lines and semi-graphic scores. The hotkeys to switch modes (CTRL+2 and CTRL+3) quickly become muscle memory and after a time you can get very fast at doing this.

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With all due respect, I would not want this feature at all, as I far prefer having a boundary between these two tasks. For me personally, writing is more of a creative activity; whereas engraving is more technical and presentation-oriented for the sake of live players. Different mindsets and therefore having a boundary between them makes it easier to focus on those completely separate tasks without getting distracted.

Plus, I am not a professional engraver, my focus is solely composition (and mockups), so I find Dorico does a far better job handling the complexities of engraving for me automatically. But when I do want to fix engraving with overrides, I put on my “engraving hat,” enter that mode, and go to town.

When I used to work in Sibelius and MuseScore, the simple fact I could (and sort of had to) align elements like hairpins and dynamics and text all day sent me down a different path, or going to select and move notes but accidentally dragging the bar line– where I would get a lot less actual music done. But sure, those measures looked good!

Now, when I sit down to Dorico with Write Mode open, I am there to do one thing only: Write.

To me it’s the mental equivalent of those writing apps which are text-based only (Markdown editors) vs. a full-fledged word processing design program where you can get sidetracked with fonts and formatting and clip art; at least, for many people, this boundary can be very helpful (even if that was not necessarily the original design intention by the Dorico team).

That said, I understand every user is different, perhaps some do not find the combination distracting; others doing both note input from hand-scores and engraving (therefore not a creative writing process) might find benefit for the combination so they can accomplish entry and engraving finesse at once, if that works best for them. I am not opposed if the developers could offer a menu preference somehow enabling this UI combination for users such as yourself who would prefer it;

but I would hope that Dorico would not entirely change its menu philosophy and merge everything in one place. The program offers a lot of complexity but is organized in such a way that allows it to feel clean and focused.

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I happen to think that was a very large part of that intention! :wink:

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Well to be fair, the basics should be straightforward enough to make the user understand where certain things are/do despite not knowing them with absolute certainty. The Dorico training is still useful of course.

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Do Help>Create Diagnostic report and upload it here (crash reports to Steinberg are of no help to the Dorico development team).

I will just add that I too disagree with your suggestion. I compose, arrange and transcribe and spend about 90% of my time in Write mode, Galley view. I don’t even want to think about layout until all the musical material is entered…

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