Frame Order

Dorico
#1

I have two frames on the same page LA (1) and LA (2).
If I change (1) to (2), the frames reverse for an instant, then revert back.
What am I misunderstanding?

Can anyone explain where this is:

‘If you assign a music frame to a layout frame chain, you must activate the Frames section on the formatting panel.’

What formatting panel? Where?

If I delete a master frame, the frame and music just shift a page. I’m sure I’m doing this wrong but don’t understand.
Should I be deleting the master frame if I add layout frames instead? Or can I keep the master frame but with no music in it? How?

‘You can assign flows only to master page music frames.’
‘You can assign players only to master page frame chains.’
pp 123/124 of the Operations Manual.

These statements seem untrue as I can assign flows and players to layout frame chains… so… what do they mean?

#2

  1. This might be a bug – I’ll investigate further and report back when I get a chance.

  2. The formatting panel is simply the left-hand panel in Engrave mode, and “activate the Frames section” means to switch on the switch at the top of the left panel.

  3. If you want to delete a page, remove the overrides for that page, rather than trying to delete the frames from a page.

  4. What this means is that the filters for flows and players can only be used for a master page frame when you’re editing the master page, but I think the meaning here is rather confused.

#3

Thanks Daniel!

Re. Q.3
If I want to put music in layout frames on a page, what do I do with the master frame for that page? I can’t remove the music from it without deleting it. What is the correct procedure?

#4

Try creating a master page change to the master page ‘None’, just for that page only.

#5

Looking everywhere and still can’t see how to do that? Where is the master page ‘none’?
I know where ‘Insert Master Page Change’ is, but only get ‘first’ and ‘default’ as options.

Thanks for help!

#6

Perhaps this is what Daniel meant
pageNone.png

#7

In the RH panel in Engrave mode you can click on the ‘new page’ icon in the bottom left of the ‘pages’ panel. Then create a new page using master page ‘none’ before / after your current page.

#8

Thank you. That helps clear it up.

#9

Neither of these work for me.
Unlink doesn’t actually remove anything or allow me to delete it without moving it somewhere else.
A new master page set with ‘none’ leaves me with blank pages. If I remove all overrides I’m back to square one.

I still don’t understand how to delete a master frame from a page so that i can just have layout frames (or even if this is what I’m supposed to do).
I still have pages that I don’t know how to delete.

‘Delete’ should surely be predictable?

#10

To delete a master page frame from a page, you have to make a new masterpage BASED on none (i.e. empty) and call it something like Blank. Then you right-click the page in question and apply a masterpage change Blank to that page only. The music that was on this page moves one page to the right etc. On your empty masterpage you can now add Layout frames. Let’s call this blank page “3”.

Now, if your mission is to have the music flow continously from the Master frames (page 1-2) Via the new Layout frames on page 3 and back into the master frames on the subsquent pages, you’re in for some real chaining labour :slight_smile: It’s much easier to edit the master page frame on page “3”, so that you end up with overrides…

#11

This is still unsatisfactory, because I wan’t everything on the master page but the master music frame. Unless I should be approaching this differently. The ‘moving one page to the right’ is driving me mad, because I’m ending up with undetectable pages that have no overides on them. In fact, from my blank master page, I have undetectable pages that have nothing on them.
How can it be so difficult to delete a page?

#12

I haven’t followed every twist and turn of this thread, but IIRC one issue is that if you override the format on page 10 for example, that page is then locked to be “page 10” of the document, even if that means there are some blank pages before it.

I’m not sure why you think want to create a “blank master page”. If you want a page with the standard title blocks etc but no music, you can select the blue music frame on that page in the score and delete it. If you want to insert a completely blank page, right-click in the “pages” panel on the right and use the “insert pages” menu with the page format as “(none)”.

#13

I don’t want to create a blank master page. I just want to put layout frames on a page without the music in the master frame, or else with the master frame gone.
If I do select the blue music master frame and delete it I get extra pages added to the right with that frame on it.
Hence the thread.

#14

Dorico will always create more pages to fit in the rest of the music if it runs out of frames in the main chain that comes from the default master page, on the basis that if the music hasn’t yet all been laid out, you don’t want some of the music simply not to appear at all.

You can simply delete the master page frame from an existing page in a layout, which creates an overridden page (which is, as Rob rightly says, then locked to that index through the layout, so if the page you’ve deleted the master page frame from is currently page 5, it will henceforth always be page 5 unless you use the Swap with Previous/Next Page buttons to move it, or remove the overrides altogether).

You should find that Dorico doesn’t create any more additional pages to the right once all of the music in the flow(s) assigned to the layout has been displayed.

#15

“Dorico will always create more pages to fit in the rest of the music if it runs out of frames in the main chain that comes from the default master page, on the basis that if the music hasn’t yet all been laid out, you don’t want some of the music simply not to appear at all.”

This makes sense. All of the music is laid out in layout frames. The master frames created on new pages contain the same music as in the layout frames on page 1.

“You should find that Dorico doesn’t create any more additional pages to the right once all of the music in the flow(s) assigned to the layout has been displayed.”

I’ve deleted the music in the layout frames on page 1, which has now deleted the pages with master frames on them. But I still don’t understand why the music of the last few layout frames of page 1 was duplicated in master frames. I’m being dense… the lightbulb will come…!

#16

And thank you to everyone who has replied!

#17

Hi again :slight_smile: the Master and Layout frames are separate representations of the same music, with separate chains. Very early this morning I made the two attached excersises for myself. The first uses no master frames for the music flow, only Layout frames, while it uses master pages for the static text. The second achieves roughly the same using master frames for both text and music. Don’t know if it illuminates anything… :question:
MasterAndLayout.rar (545 KB)

#18

In ‘twinkle1’ reverse the flow order of page 2, then try to reverse it back. I can’t do it?
In ‘twinkle2’ I can’t even reverse them once?
I’ve attached the file that brought the original questions. I could only achieve this by deleting the master frame (which contained the same music). Deleting it moved it to a new page, and so on… All the music was already in the layout frames on page one.
(There are a few other engraving issues with the music, some of which I’ve since been able to sort.)

Five Waltzes (Waltz Five) Trombone 1.png
Five Waltzes (Waltz Five) Trombone 1.png1188×1682 76.3 KB

#19

That’s strange… I have no problems reversing the frame order back and forth in either of those files…

In a piece like yours I would simply avoid using master frames and rely on layout frames only. I would create a new master page (e.g. based on the Default one) and remove its music frames. I would then right-click the first page icon and choose “insert master page change” (using the new master) for all subsequent pages. THEN I would draw my Layout frames and set the order.

#20

That is exactly what I’ve done. But I still had extra pages that I couldn’t delete.