hiding cautionary key signature?

Dorico
#1

I have searched this topic here but have not found something that seems to work (or maybe I just understand it wrong). For cosmetic reasons I would like to NOT show a cautionary key signature after the end of my first staff line. The manual says:

If the music is separate enough that you do not want to see a key signature at the end of a system and you cannot change where the system break occurs, you can separate the music by creating a new flow at the point of the system break.

My first staff line IS in a different flow.

Any input, please?

#2

If your first staff line is in a different flow, then you don’t have a cautionary key signature.
In Write mode, select the key signature and hit the Delete or Backspace key on your keyboard.
If it disappears from the beginning of the following stave, it’s clearly not a separate flow!

#3

You’re right. It’s not a different flow. Mixing up my terms - they are in different Frames.
Still wish it was easier to achive what I need.

Thanks

#4

If you want a long read, it is discussed at length here:

https://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=104770

As I’ve said once or twice before, I’d love to be able to hide a cautionary without a new flow.

#5

The horse is dead, but just another heartfelt “Amen” from me…

#6

One new problem about this that has arisen since Dorico 2.2: The use of Flow Numbers and Headings makes Flows essential for specific, structural divisions in the music, and so that rules out using Flows as ‘technical’ divisions to overcome technical issues such as hiding cautionary sigs.

In other words, if I create a new Flow simply to hide cautionaries at some point in the middle of “Movement”, then all my movement numbering is up the spout.

#7

Ben, nobody’s forcing you to use the built-in numbering :wink:
I’ve been using the “work number” token since Dorico 1.1…

#8

Well, indeed. You could just insert the number in the Flow Title itself.

But that’s only one example of the problems if you need to distinguish between “Perceived Flows”, which relate to visible division of the music, such as Movements, sections, etc; and “Technical Flows”, which exist solely for functional reasons that are ‘off the page’.

#9

If you insert a Coda from the “Repeats” menu, hide the Coda text and enter a system break (you may have to fool around with the marker index on the Properties Panel if you are using repeat markers elsewhere, but that’s easy), you will find that changing the key signature where the “Coda” begins does not add a cautionary key signature.

#10

This is another case where this is really troublesome. If you have a player holding multiple instruments, there are times you really, really don’t want to show that cautionary key signature. Case in point, percussionist that needs to move from triangle to chimes.

Cautionary key.png
Cautionary key.png1081×321 28.9 KB

Dorico has the player changing instruments at bar 38. That forces a switch from 1-line to 5-line staff, and the chimes need a key signature, of course. But it is highly confusing to have the cautionary key change before bar 38. The key change actually occurred at rehearsal D. If I were a good percussionist, I might be likely to freak out when I heard the key change, thinking that I must have mis-counted.

Similarly, this is a case where it makes no sense to add the clef symbol either.

P.S. I tried making those objects white and that didn’t work.

P.P.S. Ultimately I decided to split this into two separate percussion parts with a separate player for the chimes. That eliminated the issue because the other player has all un-pitched instruments. But that won’t always be the case.

#11

It certainly would be easier to just have an option to hide the cautionaries, imo.

#12

This has always been my objection. Maybe we can have parent and child flows…?

#13

I believe Daniel has said they eventually plan on having “early” or “late” settings for players holding multiple instruments. Currently the only option is early, which is definitely not my preferred option as placing the staff change and key signature right before the entrance is a clear indication to the player that something is different in case they missed the “to …” instruction earlier. Having a “late” option should solve your issue here too, so I hope it becomes available soon!

#14

Well, my objection is that when switching from an unpitched instrument to a pitched instrument (not uncommon with percussion parts), it is confusing to insert a cautionary key change (and clef for that matter) at the end of a line. In this case, I forced a system break because it is even worse to go from unpitched to 5-line on the same system. But that cautionary key signature implies that the whole orchestra must have a key change at that instant.

Percussionists have a hard job. They often are running from stand to stand playing different instruments. They can’t rely entirely on counting. They use other cues such as key changes to reinforce where they are in the music. In my case, the key change actually happened while the unpitched instrument was playing, not as the player was supposed to move to chimes. Inserting the cautionary At that point is worse than being irrelevant or unhelpful. It is damaging.

I would welcome the option of early or late notice of instrument changes, and mute changes too. I would generally go with early because that makes more sense to me. But that really shouldn’t affect cautionary key signatures either way. It seems to me that the correct answer is for the layout to have the option to suppress cautionary key changes, meter changes, and clefs.

#15

Disclaimer: Dorico newb, just started with an evaluation and came up on this issue, maybe there’s a sensible workaround.

To test Dorico I’m doing a worksheet for piano, Rule of the Octave - think something like a scale exercise. So each line is a different key and there are four Flows, Sharp Major keys, Sharp Minor keys, Flat Major and Flat Minor. I want it all to fit on one page per flow. Pretty simple, except Dorico insists on a cautionary key change where there is none, the player will not be playing these one after another! This is more of a reference or exercise book, typically a person would either use it for reference or just be playing in a key for that session. Breaking by flow makes no sense, there would be 96 flows just to accomidate this, and it takes flows away from the Mode groupings (e.g. sharp major) that I want.

I’ve done this in the free music notation programs just fine, it’s not boding well for my evaluation. I’ve come to like the interface but am leery of software that tries to do too much thinking for you because invariably it prevents you from accomplishing what you want to do at some other point. I’m also cautious of “Well here’s how you can work around it” - as we can see Flows are not a workaround.

#16

No, but Codas are.

#17

pianoleo - thanks for the tip, yes that works along with the addition of hiding the code and fixing the indent, except I haven’t figured out how to remove the code indent - any idea?

#18

There’s an engraving option for that, on the Repeat Markers page.

#19

Just come across exactly this same scenario (Coda / Start of System / Key Change). While I would dearly love the option to be able to hide Key Signatures, on this occasion I would like to be able to see them. Unless I’m missing something (always a possibility) I can’t see any setting in Engraving Options that’s hiding them.

#20

You should see the key signature at the start of the coda, of course; it’s only the cautionary key signature that won’t appear.