What unnecessary words! Be serious! If I were an Apple user, I wouldn’t hesitate for a second to ignore all of Logic’s competitors. What interest would I have in using another DAW. Compatibility assured, great software that can do everything others can do. What a waste of time and money to look elsewhere.
For my part, I have been using Cubase with Windows for a few decades and even if things are not perfect, I would not switch to another software.
So, you might not have made the right choices. Why accuse Steinberg?
I’m not saying Steinberg should stop making Mac version, I’m saying people should stop buying macs for professional/mission critical work - because macs are not engineering computers, they are user experience products being sold to artists overpriced on the myth that they are “more stable”.
1.Linux
2.Windows
3. Raspberry PI / Arduino
4. Apple Mac.
But, that argument aside, anyone who is going to Logic from Cubase, was never really a true Cubase user to begin with, they were never really in the club, just loitering in the far corner so that they could say were.
When ever I see this kind of thread, I always ask - “Have you ever even used the Project Logical Editor?”. The Project Logical Editor alone has made my workflow and productivity 100x faster than any DAW, my Cubase is unbeatable. If I switched to another DAW, I would be losing money.
When I look at Logic, I think “well, this is no different than a DAW was 30 years ago just an uglier skin that looks like an iPad App”, and ironically, Project Logical Editor was probably been around for that long and none of the other DAWs clued in.
20 years of using Cubase on and off… I’d say I know what I’m talking about. And yes,I was in the club. The editable key commands are what kept me. But it’s far too unstable on Mac. I’ve stayed with windows for my entire life. But with the m1 chips I said now is a good time to switch. The price, the product, the silence. My mac mini is the quietest machine I’ve had. And I’ve built plenty pc’s.
Remember though that you are a power user. You are literally a mechanical engineer that has got under the hood of cubase and can drive it like a Ferrari. That’s great and I agree cubase is powerful that’s why i love it on the whole. However be realistic, the majority of users don’t have your savi knowledge, and as a business, steinberg need to think about drawing in users for the future. They can’t ignore the younger crowd as they are the future long term purchasers who will sustain the business once all the older demographic have gone to pastures new. They also have to be careful of being labelled a buggy app, all software is, however on many forums I see critique of cubase more than others. Perception is king regardless of fact unfortunately.
Apple have developed the new M1/2 chip which have set them ahead of the tech crowd with a several year lead. It has excited the tech industry and regardless of whether Apple are catering to the ‘ease of use’ crowd, at the detriment of static stability, the fact is developers need to be onboard. Apple are a huge company who help to drive the tech narrative which in turn drives the software narrative. Steinberg need to be on that train. On the whole steinberg seem to be making the right noises.
I use both MacOS and Win 10 and find absolutely no difference in using cross-platform applications. I run a Win 10 system predominately as I get more power for my money, and I like to be able to maintain my own hardware.
Honestly, if you think a Mac isn’t capable of professional/mission critical work. Then you either have no experience of that work yourself, or you have very little experience working with Macs - what you produce as a professional relates to the user far more than the OS you use, the OS is really quite insignificant.
Public Betas goes for about 2 months ahead of the release date so no time for a competitor to ‘‘steal’’ the ideas.
In any case we do the beta testing every November So why not call it Public Beta and make it available for everyone and release the official version in January?
I am 33 years old now. I have used Windows since version 3.11 and until Windows 10. I bought an iMac on Jan 1st 2018 out of years of frustration with Windows. I am also a fan of Linux and would use that if the industry would do things properly and offer all the good stuff I want to work with natively, but it doesn’t. So for professional music production, at the moment, it’s either Windows or Mac. Now that I am a Mac owner for a while, I can confirm that it IS much more stable and reliable than Windows. It is not a myth.
It has its flaws, for example that OS updates sometimes change drastic things and software developers need months to update their products. And gaming on Mac is crappy, but overall, from a usability, reliability and productivity standpoint it’s a great experience. I was never happier with my computer.
Why do people always have to make things a matter of “club fights” and identification? This is not about being in a club or being a cool kid. This is about people spending their money for a product. A product that is being marketed as “professional” software. Personally, I really like what Cubase offers and really would like to be a proud user, enjoying music production with it. But features and sound content are one thing, a professional tool needs to be reliable and work as intended. And this is, where Cubase falls apart for multiple main versions now. I am with Cubase since version 7.5, and I have experienced the same thing as the author of this topic. Upgrading for the fancy new features and hope that annoying issues get fixed with the new version. I have been patiently waiting and hoping for literally years now. Sometimes I spent weeks looking at the news page every day to see a maintenance update to make Cubase the stable and professional tool that I have been promised by the marketing. It never happened, and it just got worse. Version 10 was bad, 11 is unacceptable for me. And I am exhausted from waiting and hoping, I am disappointed as a customer. On my path to find the right tool for my home studio, a DAW that inspires and excites me and offers a workflow that fits my type of music and thinking, I decided to go with Cubase. Even though I own almost all known DAWs. But reliability is a must-have for me, as I take music production more serious than most other things.
Logic is the closest competitor for Cubase. It offers amazing instruments, good effects and a clean workflow. Recent updates massively improved the built-in sampler, unlike Cubase, it offers a great step sequencer for beatmaking. (Cubase’s BeatDesigner and StepDesigner are outdated, have a clunky workflow and lack modern features.)
Logic also got a pretty great implementation of clip-based recording like Ableton Live, which is not my cup of tea, but strengthens its feature set.
I’d argue that REAPER can do even more wonders for you, if you customize its toolbars with their extensive actions menu and for complicated tasks use the option to write custom LUA scripts. The logical editor is mighty, but REAPER can surely beat it. However, that’s just an argument against the claim you made. That does not mean you should use anything else than what works great for you.
Right now, I am done waiting and hoping. I am also quite happy with Logic Pro, and while I still want to make Cubase my DAW of choice, version 11 was the last for me until I see a dramatic improvement in how Steinberg handles updates. I will keep an eye on the forums for upcoming versions and read through the version history, but if they continue as they have done the last few years, I give up on them. Then, the simple fact is: Cubase does not meet my requirements for professional work, and I fell for hollow marketing.
Not necessarily, I know plenty of people who have used Cubase and other DAWs for 20 year and barely got beyond adding a track and hitting record. Not saying that’s the case for you, but I’ve known more people switch from Logic to Cubase than the other way around…
Or a terrible time to switch… If something is working, why switch? Isn’t that your mistake here and now you are switching to Logic because of your mistake? I mean… here the truth has come out has it not?
M1 chips are just hype, and Apple will probably be releasing something else in 4 years that will, again, break everything.
Again, there is no magic here. You can accomplish the same if not better with a custom PC and case.
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I do like that sound of that, thanks.
You have a good point here - and I actually think they do a pretty good job at that recently with the plugins and features they are releasing.
I don’t know, I don’t see too much difference between forums TBH, except, when it comes to Apple/Mac. Apart from the 4k resolution fiasco which is more the fault of users thinking they can switch screen resolutions on old software and have it be the same… Most problems I see are to do with Mac on this forum.
Other DAWs simply are not as complex as Cubase.
That’s great you’re - currently - finding no difference. Is a Mac capable of recording a project? Yes. My contention is that they can’t be trusted, are unpredictable, have bad compatibility and longevity , force proprietary tech instead of open source, try to control everything like they’re a communist country (which ultimately leads to failure), and they have no regard for product longevity.
So from a professional perspective, going to have to disagree with you here. I actually do have a lot of in depth experience here.
First of all, my current main system. I am running Cubase 10.5 on Windows 7. Windows 7 is discontinued but I can reformat my computer today and still update everything via Windows Update. Not only am I running Cubase 10.5 flawlessly on a discontinued OS… I am running Cubase 10, Cubase 8.5 64bit, Cubase 8.5 32bit, Cubase 4 64bit, Cubase 4 32bit, and Cubase SX3.
Cubase SX3 (Before Windows 7) was released in 2004 (17 years ago).
Windows 7 was released in 2009 (11 years ago).
Cubase 10.5 (not Windows 7 compatible) was released 2 years ago.
Everything from Cubase SX3 to Cubase 10.5 works flawlessly
I can run Windows XP software on Windows 7, and some Windows 10 software on Windows 7. In fact, apparently I can just install Cubase 11 onto a Windows 10 machine, and then drag it over to my Windows 7 machine. My Windows 7 machine is over 10 years old.
Further, I can still run some Windows XP software on Windows 10.
Sorry, but, you can just not say the same about Mac/Apple. Almost every time they release an update, it breaks things.
My first exposure to Apple/Mac was in Audio Engineering school when we were all taught that Mac/Apple was the professional standard and that we should all be using it. I remember some months later, Apple released a required update and it broke everything in the school. All our student Mboxes stopped working, everything was freezing, perpetual beach balls, Pro-Tools wasn’t working properly, the 002s and a bunch of AD/DAs weren’t working, etc, etc. It was a total IT mess… no one knew whether to revert the macs back which didn’t seem possible or if Digidesign needed to release a patch. It was catastrophic.
There’s a reason why Apple/Macs aren’t used in infrastructure. Linux is, and Windows 2nd. NASA is not using Apple/Macs - they are not mission critical devices - they are hip user experience devices. I can summarize this as my dismay when going to a music store to potentially buy one to test out… and Apple had just released this two button mouse, but it was a single cover - a secret two button mouse. Then and there, I decided I would never buy an Apple product. It’s all “design” and hype.
a properly built Windows PC whith good components will last 20 years easily.
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I think the above answers the just of @DAC_Protogen your post. I’m obviously being facetious in a half-jokingly way… but it’s just my experience that when people say “screw this i’m going to Logic/Reaper” - as soon as I inquire as to how deep they actually went into Cubase… they didn’t go deep at all and the PLE is a good measurement of that.
Cubase is an engineers software - and an engineer knows not to change anything once it’s stable. Don’t update it, don’t change operating systems, etc, etc - without having the available time and resources to test it thoroughly. Thus - I have never really had stability problems with Cubase ever - at least nothing out of the ordinary.
If you are always wanting the latest update instantly, the latest OS, the latest screen resolution, etc, etc - you making yourself to be the guinea pig.
Logic Instruments, meh, nothing to write home about.
Not interested in Reapers scattered approach. I prefer properly designed, rather than openly designed. I don’t have time to write LUA scripts, show me exactly what Reaper has that beats PLE? Telling me I can write my own code in Reaper, isn’t a feature, it’s a task.
Again, this is sort of user error to believe you can just change screen resolutions on older software. Surely Steinberg are working to fix that (as they already have started), but to expect it instantaneously is sort of unreasonable. You have to take responsibility for your own choices. Don’t buy a BMW if you don’t have the money to pay for more expensive parts/maintenance…
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I’m not going to post anymore in here, as I sense a moderator warning coming my way - but I simply believe it’s my duty as a colleague and engineer to give my professional assessment in these regards as I do when I’m building someone a studio and the Mac vs PC thing comes up. This is my professional engineering assessment.
If I were building someone a Cubase studio today, I would be installing Cubase 10.5 on a PC, and tell them to wait before updating to Cubase 11 and I would also tell them to not get a 4k screen.
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All in all, Cubase and Windows are good enough for Hans Zimmer and his tech Mark Wherry (genius) as well as Junkie XL who is also a super nerd and would only use what is best (go watch his YouTube channel) and HE CAME FROM LOGIC. If Cubase is good for them, what do you have to complain about?
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Logic last I checked doesn’t even have Folder tracks within Folder tracks - - that’s a deal breaker right there.
Important distinction is: it is a deal breaker for you, personally. Not for every user. For example, my most complex track to date uses 23 tracks. Usually, I work with less. There are people out there, coming from the analog hardware world who will tell you that you can fit any music production well within 8 tracks, and if you use more, you’ve done something wrong (which is not my opinion, just reciting stuff I read). In short, different people have different workflows, doing different tasks and have different requirements for what they do. There are plenty of tools on the market to cover this, and every choice is individual. Also, these requirements may change with time, as a person develops different skills, and software takes distinct directions with its development. Sometimes for the better, sometimes for worse.
For me, not having folder tracks within folder tracks is not a deal breaker at all. Of course I respect that it might be for you, and this is fine.
About that Hans Zimmer thing… at first I thought so too. But the thing is, he does not use the latest Cubase version. The problems became much worse with version 10, and if you scout the forums, you’ll notice that it is not only Mac users, but also Windows 10, especially the scaling and graphical issues.
You know what is a deal breaker for me, personally? Crashes. And Cubase is the only DAW that does that to me. I keep my plugins as up to date as possible, btw. Yes, sometimes it is their fault. However, they somehow don’t crash Ableton Live, nor Studio One, nor Reaper or Reason. It is only Cubase that decides to leave me during a session sometimes. Also, I have experienced performance issues with CPU spikes, broken UI elements and a completely f—ed up timeline grid, showing the beats at random intervals. One time, I had the issue that I wanted to change the length of a MIDI clip and it jumped around wildly in length. Steinberg’s own Groove Agent SE was reliably crashing the DAW on insert during a version I had. Multidelay had some massive performance issues at release with some presets. The CPU overload indicator warns for years now from the very creation of an empty project. Wouldn’t I click it away like an idiot every startup, it could not serve the very purpose it was created for, warning about actual CPU overload during the processing. This gives me serious OCD and if I had coded this, I wouldn’t SLEEP until this works as it should. It’s stuff like this in multiple areas that accumulates to what I deem unacceptable for a almost 600 Euro DAW. Especially with marketing that uses people like Hans Zimmer as a reason to demonstrate how “professional” the product is. And where even intermediate updates cost as much as a complete DAW from other companies.
Sure some of my latest tracks are a single stereo track fed from a stereo Eurorack output section - but in that template I have a plethora of hidden utility tracks, mixing tracks, etc organized in a series of folders that I can unhide, expand, and select all with a single key via PLE script that exists in a macro that also goes to Workspace 3, etc, etc.
We can probably find other deal breakers, it was just one example. The main one for me again, is P/LE.
MixConsole I think is better than Logic - havent checked it a while. Does Logic have Summing Mode with multiple direct outs?
Creatively speaking, I feel pretty limited and slow in Logic… Not to say it doesn’t have any good features “select highest note” is pretty cool. But nothing beats my customized Cubase - nothing. If all you are doing is basic recording/production, then you can use any DAW, but I am aiming for the moon.
I mentioned that as a caveat, but here, Hans Zimmer was smart and everyone else wasn’t. Don’t update - anything - including your computer screen, until the dust has settled. People who bought 4k screens to use Cubase on made user error.
Not really having crashes here, sometimes. Again I’m on 10.5 Windows 7… Are there things I want in 11? Yes. Do I need 11 to be ceative, do work, get paid? no. I have - zero - problems. Odd plugin seems to cause crashes.
In terms of these plugins working better on Ableton and such… I inquire into some of these developers whether they test on Steinberg Cubase/Nuendo - the uhh, authors of the VST format the 3rd party plugin devs develop for - and they don’t. How smart of a development protocol is that! I try to cut those plugin devs out. Steinberg likely enforces standards stricter than other DAWs, and perhaps Steinberg has certain required conformities for Cubase/Nuendo.
I believe at this point it comes down to workflow preferences and what features one needs. Both are fine DAWs
Logic has its own weird crashes and ancient bugs as well. The PDC bug that is 100 years old just got fixed today.
Switching was not a mistake. Not at all, I am in fact super happy with the switch. This system runs like it should. The only two flaws I can find with Apple OS is the inability to delete unused programs and that uninstalling programs is much better on windows. In mac it is a bit tedious and you have to be careful not to delete important files, etc. Other than that… This mac mini is ultra quiet and smokes any PC I have ever had. I am 95 percent happy with Apple. I am also looking forward to diving more into Logic. Being on Cubase for 20 years, and Roland vs-1680 before that with Mpc’s and Tritons etc, I can say that I will be ok. I have loved Cubase, but it is a bit outdated and I do not see it getting much better or more modern anytime soon. The workflow has been great, but the crashes are unacceptable as are the simple features that are overlooked in cubase.
I would also like to add that I struggled making a decision to actually purchase logic… However, considering that for 200.00 I get years worth of updates for free and there is only ONE version of the program, I am happy about that. I think Cubase should ditch the idea of a three tier cubase. They really should just make one, and offer subscription, or subscribe to buy sort of thing. I think they would gain a lot more customers if they took a more modern approach. They have an old model. Most Daws do.
I personally would like to see lots of changes in cubase.
I would rather have them have updated groove agent with KILLER sounds.
A killer retro synth, a modern synth, wonderful keys (rhodes, clav, wurli, organ)
It would be nice to have less but much better top notch sounds than a bunch of generic sounds. (Logic is guilty of this as well, but their sounds and plugins are superior to Cubase IMO)
Or I would rather have no sounds and pay less!
In fact if they offered two different versions, one with sounds and one without, I would be okay with that. But, Steinberg just has too much going on (outside of Cubase)
Have you been reporting your crashes? I’ve never seen you on the forums before this thread asking for crash help. Crashes are almost always plugin related. Sometimes drivers, sometimes OS.
You seem to be implying that Cubase is crashing within itself and because of itself - that’s very uncommon from what I’ve seen, If I’ve ever had that happen - tech support/devs have been up my a$$ to get as much info and diagnostics as possible to fix the issue.
What exactly is outdated? apart from some old menus, just curious as to what is more modern in Logic?
To each their own, I mean there’s a plethora of users who could use any DAW as maybe they aren’t dealing with much complex project and commercial logistics - they could use Audacity or Goldwave and get by. Not saying that as an insult, but as @DAC_Protogen explained, some people are just recording 8 tracks and that’s it - project done.
Logistics wise, I’m dealing with very large and complicated projects, and in terms of my own creative music making - it ranges from one mic on one guitar - to complex MIDI routings to my external synths, a lot of FX tracks with complicated routings, etc, etc. Nothing manages and organizes this better than Cubase - if it did, I wouldn’t be using Cubase.
Cubase is a very deep program, to combine three version and sell for $200 doesn’t make sense. The Elements and Artist versions don’t need the more complex and commercial studio features, those users will never use them, but those features have a very very high value and importance for me.
It’s interesting, having quality included sounds is the least of my concerns. I’ve programmed all my own sounds into Groove Agent - created my own kits, instruments, etc. 100s, of them.
MediaBay is another thing that is huge for me, can’t remember if Logic has something similar. But I always thought Cubase, Groove Agent SE, and Halion SE came bundled with tons of decent quality sounds? Even though I don’t use them, they seemed pretty good…
Either way, I’m ducking out of this thread. Good luck with Logic.
Really trying hard not to sound like a jerk, but if Logic is delivering for you, why are you still posting at this forum? Aren’t there forums for Logic users?
Personally I have very few crashes. I really can’t remember the last one. But I use Windows. Not that Microsoft is perfect, but I have first hand knowledge of numerous IT professionals that Microsoft has kept in key positions because they understand the importance of stability and reliability. Imagine what Microsoft’s business would be like if SQL Server frequently corrupted data.
As an outsider observing the Apple OS at a distance, it seems that they have been launching major interruptions to their user base every 2-3 years lately. I’m sorry to see vendors like Steinberg have to burn so many resources trying to keep up with the damage Apple keeps doing to itself.
So why not call it Public Beta and make it available for everyone and release the official version in January? 