I'm out. Going to logic

Steinberg Lounge
61

That is true. My impression of Cubase is based on issues I have experienced myself, things I did not experience, but I am shocked to see they made it into a release after reading the fixes in the patch notes and reading here what people report. That means, some of these issues are not directly affecting me. But: it all leaves a very sour taste using the product, never knowing when you run into the next thing that annoys you, disrupts your work or even might cause lost progress on a project. I do not feel confident in Cubase at all since version 10. And seeing unfixed issues every day that exist for years now does not improve that confidence.

And I do make an important distinction. I have no problem that there are bugs which might be very exotic, only in very rare constellations under certain circumstances. Stuff that only comes to light when you have a very broad testing bed “in the wild”. Thats fine and normal! But issues make it into major releases every year that are just new features not working as intended, because they were not tested enough and not ready. And some of the issues that make it into releases are visible within minutes of actually using the DAW. For example the completely broken UI of Retrologue and Groove Agent SE 5 in the C11 release on Mac. They were a clearly visible mess, and it was released anyway. Or the CPU overload indicator that is annoying people since 2017, a known issue, visible every day, never bothered to be fixed. I just found a clearly visible bug with the virtual keyboard that you’d discover just by browsing presets. Saw that within 20 minutes of dabbling with the latest update. I wonder how no tester could see this or if it is another “known issue not yet scheduled for an update” by Steinberg.

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62

I totally agree. What bothers me about ”an issue not scheduled for an update” is several things. Even though there are issues that have been around for years, Steinberg find it more important to add new features. They also say that the reason for certain bugs not being fixed is ”they are harder to fix than it appears”, and I can of course understand that but as a consumer - frankly - I don’t care. In that case Steinberg really needs to bring in more/ or simply better coders.

If, for instance, you go to a fine restaurant and the food tastes bad and the excuse you are given is ”the course is really hard to cook” - it just doesn’t cut it. We pay for a product and the product should work.

Some people suggest you should stay on a version once it’s stable. What if you never experienced a stable version? That has been my situation for the last couple of years. The only reason I have upgraded is to solve showstopping bugs. Only to find new bugs, along with old ones.

When someone announces they are considering moving to another daw it should be taken seriously and not be ridiculed. Switching daws is a pretty big and time consuming project and usually not done lightly.

I really wish Steinberg would focus on stability and bug fixing before ANY new features are added.

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63

The trouble is, if we’re paying for those kind of updates it raises a real moral dilemma . As Steinberg have a paid update cycle to adhere to, I find it hard to see how they could get really stuck into less major/app breaking bugs.

Ideally, x.5 updates should be bug fixing and stability based, and then we only get charged for full version updates C9/C10/C11 etc. That way there’s a far longer period between major updates (thus new features) to get things stable and running well.

That would mean that each full version update would be more expensive, of course. And any new features would mainly go into the full version updates.

It’s a really tough call, though. As the Steinberg sales model is well established already and many people abuse ‘make use’ of the grace period and sales based around that cycle to their advantage.

While I’m not a fan of the subscription model, you could see how that could have a positive effect on development as there’s less pressure on there being x number of new features delivered in winter.

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I don’t know the immediate solution to the problem but I do know I don’t find it adequate at the moment and I am looking for other solutions too, be it Reaper, Studio One, Bitwig, Ableton, Logic, Pro Tools or whatever. Software has veered so far away from the stability of hardware that it’s affecting creativity and workflow way too much. Therefore I am even willing to lower my expectations when it comes to features in order to get stability.

I only want to make music but I’ve spent WAY too much time the last couple of years reporting bugs, trying to come up with workarounds and recovering from crashes.

Creativity should come first, not second.

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65

Yes resizable Windows. The windows in Cubase are tiny, plugins tiny, I’ve got a 32" 2k monitor, and there is no fix for this in the near future.

Yes basically Steinberg is failing big time on this. All the new plugins that they have introduced in the last versions have non resizable interfaces. Details like this generate a lot of mistrust since it is a feature that is obviously needed when you use big screens or several of them in a modern setup (Arturia, Xfer, U-he and many other plugin companies at least include zooming options for this very reason).
However I think we can safely assume that Steinberg developers believe that they are still living in the 90’s (don’t get me wrong: this can be good for certain things but not this one).

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Yes basically Steinberg is failing big time on this. All the new plugins that they have introduced in the last versions have non resizable interfaces. Details like this generate a lot of mistrust since it is a feature that is obviously needed when you use big screens or several of them in a modern setup (Arturia, Xfer, U-he and many other plugin companies at least include zooming options for this very reason).

It’s terrible on a 32" 4k. Luckily I have it flanked with two 1080p monitors, but there are just way too many tiny elements that hurt the eyes. :frowning:

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People always wanting something for nothing . It’s your fault , stay with the stable OS , you choose to update . Don’t you think Crapple does this on purpose ,sabotage Steinbergs updates with their own to force you to go over to logic , your in a Daw war , they did the same with Atari . Your loss , see you later , don’t slam the door my head hurts from these comments

68

Lol.
I don’t think Apple cares about Logic at all. It is not even pocket change for them.
They want to sell Macs.
More happy Cubase users on Mac means more Mac sales.

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69

Don’t underestimate the illogical capability of cults to commit self-destruction and harm… Hence, Logic being mac only since version 5 (which ironically apparently still works on Windows)

70

Of course, And as you say:-

I can only thank you for the time you spend on these forums to educate us, sir. If only we could hear a second of your work it would inspire us greatly.

But alas, I know we are not deemed worthy. :frowning:

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72

thats so painfully wrong I don’t know where to begin. OS X is essentially BSD unix with apple add ons for UI, drivers, all sorts of other bits. I haven’t updated, nor have there been updates for several pieces of hardware I have like tascam 20X20. Yes the exact same drivers have worked through 3 major OS updates. So much for apple breaking everything on every update.
before you blame the OS, and sometimes it is at fault, all sorts of other problems have to be sorted out from hardware and software config ( often under spec, poor components, bad cables and cabke routing ) to bad power. I had client who complained their system was constantly and randomly crashing. went over and sure it enough it was , every time the big window AC unit kicked on. UPS and powering the system on another circut fixed everything. So don’t make catagorical statements like that w/o actual facts to back it up.

73

Sorry, but reality shows otherwise - you can pick out your own anecdotal experiences here, but what I’ve said goes far beyond my own anecdotes and is simply visible by way of market share in mission critical contexts - space programs, city infrastructure, public transit automation, defense, etc. People use Linux first and Windows second. Interestingly enough Windows is incorporating Linux probably for this reason. There is a whole market of people out there who do not give a damn about OS brand (myself included) - they care about compatibility longevity, stability, programmability, etc.

Again I will quote myself again.

You can find a few anecdotal examples, but the above in general is the truth.

This is not a secret, the only people who deny it are Mac users and here I am, a Windows user saying I’d without second thought move to Linux. I have zero allegiance to any OS. My reason? Because Windows 10 and Windows in general is becoming more like Apple/Mac in regards to UX and updates.

Not trying to be facetious, but this conversation sure damn needs to be had in this industry - because imagine if Steinberg didn’t have to put so many resources into maintaining compatibility with OSX. Pretty much every time Apple releases a new OS name, I see devs racing to be “compatible with OSX __________”

And then the further issue is, well, you can just not updated your Apple Mac… but then Apple releases a bunch of stuff and other software updates that are only compatible with the new OSX version, forcing you to update.

I’ve seen it time and time again, has nothing to do with PSU and I’m always caught off guard by it, thinking to myself "okay, well, I’ve had a couple BSODs… but… I’ve never had to go through that on Windows :zipper_mouth_face: "

This isn’t something I’m making up,
google search ( i cant link as new user):
[Switching from macOS to Windows | MeldaProduction]

I sincerely hope the current Gen of macs are good and without problems for all users here, and also not once again obsolete in 2-4 years

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I"m not offering “incidental” information but did provide a good example case in specific of OS being blamed and it had nothing to do with the OS. I spent over 10 years in onsite customer service, support, installation, training for NLEs at national networks and post houses. I have a CS degree. I’ve seen way way more than this.

Windows use for running infrastructure is frightening because its not fault tolerant and has only over the last few years started to take security and stability serisouly. Its in such widespread use not because its good, but because its simply the most common OS out there. Read the Win ULA where it says not for use in running infrastructure critical services, its in there. There are manufacturing plants running on NT. Why ? because all there software that controls all their facility is running on it and they are too scared to update, afraid of downtime or won’t scedule it. The problem is finding old hardware to run the old software when the hardware fails. This is surpsingly common. One major retailer thats now gone was using DOS to run their cash registers. You could talk to my friend who worked for them and handled their liqudation what a disaster it was to go to ebay to buy old computer parts to keep their registers running until the doors closed for good. That is reality.

Spacecraft don’t run on windows. They require fault tolerant OS. rather than explain, google “what OS used in satellites” for education. Linux, or more obscure vers sold by vendors who harden it to deal with both software and hardware failure.

As for Cubase, I switched from Logic to Cu10. Logic was constant problems with MIDI and MIDI config. Really bad docs. If you want to just track live stuff and mix, its ok. If you want simple MIDI record it works. Want to mix hardware snyths + MIDI + softsynths X mutluple tracks its not good. Cubase works really really well for complex MIDI stuff when mixing hardware and software.

I also have to say a big part of my early problems was due MOTU hardware which I got rid of. Their drivers are unstable garabage, even for their MIDI XT express. This again comes back to not OS, not Cu or Logic, but config of hardware and drivers. Since I moved to Cu I’ve been able to do actual music rather than endless nights trying to make everything work, only to find the next week the same config isn’t working again. Logic drove me crazy with this in how obstuse it is.

Cubase 11 has be really stable on OS 11, even when it wasn’t officially blessed. Stienburg does however need to take bug fixing far more sersiouly - I did have a consistant crasher wtih 10.0.30 related to GPU which took them months to fix. Stienburg needs to change to monthly release builds where they make a short list of bugs to fix, and get it done. GPU crasher ? priority.
UI sizing is a much larger problem to solve, but it does need to be worked on faster. Even on mac parts of the OS on a 4K screen are way too small - what worked on a 1280X1024 screen doesn’t work on 4K+ res screens. I suspect though that there is some deep old code behind the UI and its non-trvial to update it beause its old, creaky, scary stuff or simply has to be completely redone which is expensive on all levels… but done it must.

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75

there’s not anything in there that could change my mind or really negated my post and I’m happy to talk tech

What are you arguing against exactly? Are you telling me that MacOS has the same compatibility longevity as Windows? come on mate, it’s just not the case.

Depends in each context, but certainly, macs running infrastructure would be even more frightening.

I didn’t say they did, I said Linux.

That’s pretty specific, in much of those contexts, Windows has been heavily customized, custom scripts, custom software, etc from the ground up.

I’d imagine it depends on the version of Windows what the ULA will read, but I’m not sure, haven’t read it or compared across versions - maybe Windows has non-public offerings and support. Maybe it’s just to cover their a$$, maybe it’s because they know independent non microsoft employees will be customizing the OS for engineering purposes.

But either way, I don’t really feel anything, though I appreciate the tech talk, has really changed what I’ve said and pointed out which can be summarized by the quote of myself, as well as the Melda Production article.

Interesting talk about the MIDI Express XT though, I have an am currently using one, have a couple problems with it - if it’s on and I shut down windows, it prevents Windows from shutting down. And then I also get a UI crash in Clockworks if I rename patches and click out of the rename. Other than that it works great though.

My screen res is 3440x1440 (Ultrawide Screen) and it’s good. I guess a lot of people didn’t realize you can’t change screen resolutions on older software.

It’s nothing personal in regards to MacOSX, if you have one and it’s working for you without problems - then you don’t have a problem, and that’s great. But it’s apparent to me that MacOSX updates creates another vector of potential error whereby not only does the DAW need to reconfigure itself to be compatible, but now, all the plugins the user has also do as well. Then they start having crashes, etc, etc and blame the DAW.

-Cubase user has Windows
-Cubase is a crossplatform app
-Logic is an MacOSX exclusive App
-Apple releases new OSX
-Cubase user believes Mac is “better industry standard”/M1 tech is magic
-Cubase user switches to Mac
-Cubase user starts having problems with Cubase
-Cubase user blames developer
-Cubase user switches to Logic

That’s literally what happened here…

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76

I only differ in one point. M1 is still nothing close to an industry standard. It’s more of a gamble. Steinberg is not alone in this. Native Instruments is also having trouble to provide compatibility because they have a lot of code optimized for x86 CPU’s.

With that said, Logic is more user friendly than Cubase and benefits from a far better macOS USB policy than Windows, even if it critically lacks multichannel MIDI routing for power users. Steinberg and Microsoft should seriously consider teaming up to solve the USB part, and Steinberg should hire a proper beta testing team made of full-time musicians, composers and producers to improve the user friendliness aspect.

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77

I think your own expert professional experience (:crazy_face:) in Audio IS what matters most. This isn’t a NASA, City Infrastructure or Public transit forum.

Of course, if there’s anyone currently landing a space shuttle, building a city or controlling intersections within Cubase, I sincerely apologise. lol

How about we go back and talk about your vast experience which you referenced on nearly every post until questioned. Seems you’re trying to back out and take your crusade to a more City development/Space research direction now? lol. No wonder you face bans for derailing topics so much - really really pathetic…

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78

That’s sort of a strawman argument and you seem insistent on cherry picking my arguments that matter less, rather than focusing on the ones that matter more. Cubase is an Audio Engineering software, and those are other engineering fields.

Ironically, you could probably do this with a DAW utilizing MIDI and if there is a DAW that could manage and properly organize this out of the box, it would be Cubase. But potentially Reaper would be used for the ability of being customized specific to the task with custom script/code.

Listen mate, I told you once, and I’m not going to tell you again after this - I’m not disclosing who I am or who I work with for various reasons - got it? Or do I have to tell you? Do I have to reveal to you who I am, because you’re incapable of registering an argument and valid point and so you’re insistent on the idea you can invalidate my position via my work resume even though it’s completely irrelevant in that if I were a literal fly on the wall, incapable of physically pushing a fader, who had buzzed their way the exact same paths I’d taken - I would have the exact same perspective on Macs. It’s completely irrelevant, and I’m not going to dance because you demand me to, and thus I’m also not going to let you try and invalidate my points here by trying to attach it to my work experience.

my opinion and perspective here, is very relative to the context…

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i was speaking more on the perception people have vs the reality that, you’re correct, M1 is more of a gamble.

Garage Band is also more user friendly than Logic… I’m not sure how much user friendly should be a concern, most of the feature requests here from users are essentially telling Steinberg to go much deeper.

What specific USB problems?

80

Just calling you out on what I perceive as lies, it’s that simple. If you want to troll the forum waving the superior flag to try and steamroll the Mac community, then there comes a point when someone questions your validity. To which you dissolve into the darkness of secrecy.

You’re now desperately trying to find another vehicle to promote your Anti Apple crusade (Civil Engineering? Space Research? Defence sector?! lol). I can’t be the only one thinking ‘why?’… What is even the point of someone posting such ridiculously biased tripe and pretending it’s from a place of experience(?!).

You’re coming across as a fanatic with some serious insecurity issues. And on that basis I’m not comfortable with encouraging your mental state any further - so will do my best to not reply to you on this thread any further.

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81

What is the lie? You haven’t pointed out any lies, just that i’m “lying”. Being a troll lurking in the darkness of secrecy - I’m a fairly anti-flag kind of individual, so you’re making a contradicting statement and mixing up your personality trait assessment of me.

Am I being desperate??? And, why not? You haven’t stated why not, just that I’m ridiculous for doing so. Again, you are isolating one argument out of context from the others. I’m not trying find another vehicle, it was all one vehicle. You’ve literally isolated one of my arguments, and are now fabricating it as a sole desperate argument.

A fanatic who would, again, abandon Windows as soon as a Cubase Linux were to be released?

Ah, so you make a technology conversational exchange personal, make a bunch of attacks, try to invalidate my argument by relying on ad hominem instead of making an actual argument, try to force me to reveal personal information and then when I don’t you use that to try and invalidate my arguments despite being irrelevant… and then you conveniently duck out.

I think I need to go grab a coffee, walk off my insecurity issues a bit.

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