inserting & extending bars

Hi,

Is there an equivalent of the Sibelius system selections in Dorico? If so, how do you insert such a selection into another part of the score? I tried all kind of things, but in all cases Dorico made a total mess of the timesignatures and even the amount of notes in bars.

1 ) So, in the picture a silly example, how do I copy the last bar to the spot before the 4/4?

2 ) How do I repeat the second bar? I figured out that I have to select the notes and the both time-signatures before I press R, but this leads also to an unnecessary extra time-signature.

3 ) How do I make a bar longer? How to make the first bar a 4/4 without getting a mess?

Off topic, is there a way to select the whole system and to add an interval to all notes in one step?

best wishes,
Douwe
bars.jpg

These are crucial questions, and I’m looking forward to hearing what ideas the team has planned to make such operations less awkward. It has been mentioned that the insert functionality will be extended to be either the current voice, all voices or all staves (I think) which is a step in the right direction. What I personally miss at the moment is the ability to (temporarily) define any barline as a fence, which would prevent all music to the right of the it from being affected by time signature changes etc., or something along that line.

As Frank rightly says, at the moment Dorico is missing these kinds of operations. The fundamental problem is that insert mode currently operates only on the current voice, and items like time signatures do not belong to a single voice but rather to a more global context (even time signatures that are specific to a single staff do not belong only to a single voice). I hope it won’t be too long before we can make these sorts of operations much less awkward.

To add an interval above or below notes, use the Write > Add Notes Above or Below dialog.

Thank you Daniel,
I also hope this won’t take too long. I finally reached the point that I really started to like Dorico and was up to do a new commission fully in Dorico, and than these things popped up. For me this is a crucial issue. In early stages of a composition I’m experimenting a lot with grooves, time-signatures and moving things around, so I’m afraid I’ll have to go back to ‘Product A’ for the moment. I may sound critical now and than, but I’m following your adventure from the very beginning and I’m pretty sure I’ll move to Dorico when more basic stuff is ready!!

About adding intervals, wouldn’t it be nice to get them in a pop-over? Selecting a bunch of notes, clicking shift-I (or so), entering u§ or l(ow) and a notename for adding a fixed note above or below, or a number for a fixed interval???

I didn’t quite follow this… Product A doesn’t offer Insert mode at all, so how can returning to it help you in this aspect?

Hi Ian,
Sorry for the confusion. I was asking about inserting complete system-selections, not about Dorico’s unique insert-mode. Actually I’m not even sure which product is A or B or C, therefore I have to re-read Daniels blogs again…
D.

Hi Daniel,
Regarding the upcoming update I didn’t read anything about solving the very basic issues I mentioned above. Any news about this…?
D

I’m afraid that there is no significant change in the way insert mode works, or in the way that time signatures are handled, in Dorico 1.1. The sorts of operations you need to do still require more steps than they ideally would. When you need to e.g. lengthen a 3/4 bar to make it 4/4, you still need to create more time before you change the 3/4 time signature to 4/4. The way I would approach this is to replace the 3/4 time signature with a 1/4 time signature, then use Shift+B to insert another bar between the three 1/4 bars and the following bar, then change the 1/4 time signature to 4/4. As I say, it involves more steps than it should, but it’s the best we can do for the time being.

Hi Daniel.
I’m asking again, is there any improvement te be expected regarding the issues above in the upcoming update? I do my ‘free’ piano-stuff in Dorico now, but these kinds of limitations are keeping me away from Dorico for the bigger commissioned works. I saw the upcoming cue-notes and drum notations features and they are really (!) amazing, but things like this have to be changed before I really step on the train.
Besides that, I’m sooo much looking forward to documentation that covers everything in Dorico 1.2…

The main change in Dorico 1.1 was to respect Insert mode when adding time signatures, so if you have e.g. a 3/4 bar and you want to make it a 4/4 bar, first make sure Insert mode is engaged (hit I), then create the time signature: Dorico will ensure that the passage affected by the time signature ends with a complete bar of the new time signature, creating rests as necessary to do so. You already have this change, as it was included in Dorico 1.1.

Don’t forget that the Version History document that we publish with each update includes very detailed documentation of the changes. The changes for Dorico 1.1 took up something like 40 pages in the Version History. If you’ve just been skipping over reading that, then I strongly suggest you go back and review it.

Hi,
Yeah I know about the improvements in 1.1 and don’t worry I missed the text about it (I read and watch almost everything that is available). But afaik (but I can be mistaken…) only the third question of my original post about this is solved with this improvement, but the first en the second task are still not easy to do???

Douwe, what would you like to do?

Hi KB, thanks for asking. Please see the first post in this topic.

Yes Douwe, I know, just trying to help…
If you numbered the questions in your first post 1) 2) etc. readers will more easily recognise them and you might therefore get answers more easily.

Yes, you’re right, the numbering wasn’t exactly clear. I edited the post. Regarding the little picture in the first post:

1 )How do I copy the last bar to the spot before the 4/4?

2 ) How do I repeat the second bar? I figured out that I have to select the notes and the both time-signatures before I press R, but this leads also to an unnecessary extra time-signature.

So in this very simple example you can add extra bars and copy stuff etc, but imagine you want a insert or repeat a longer stredge of music in between other bars. I know I keep asking with every upcoming significant update, but these kind of operations are crucial for me.

Dear Douwe,

I guess what you would like to have for 1), as a simple behavior, is select the first or last bar, and insert a copy of it before the 4/4 bar, i.e. add a 3/4 bar leaving the following untouched.
I find that the way to achieve the result is way more complicated : I have to click the barline before the 4/4, insert a bar (shift B and +1 in the popover), find that the 4/4 meter is now at the beginning of my new bar, delete the meter marking, copy the bar, engage insert mode, delete the rest that appeared during the delete 4/4 meter operation, disengage insert mode, insert a new 4/4 meter, delete the last 3/4 meter, input the last 3/4 meter at the right spot, trim flow to get rid of an empty bar appeared in those last steps… Well I agree this is not very appealing ! Hopefully, when the documentation comes out, we will have some clues to learn some optimized paths !

Douwe,

Could you just delete the meters first, then copy and paste the desired notes, then replace the meters at the appropriate places?

Music haven, perhaps, but I’m very, very afraid that in more complex situations when you want to insert longer passages with changing time signatures, Dorico’s AI regarding rhythmic notation will notate something I don’t want. In the end these kind of operations bust be possible with a few clicks, copying everything you want where you want and Dorico leaving ANYTHING in it UNTOUCHED.

The implementation of the Insert Mode for single staves have probably made this kind of stuff very difficult, but if I could choose between having Insert Mode or having the easy of use in Sibelius regarding selections, copying, inserting etc, I would with no doubt choose the latter.

Music haven, perhaps, but I’m very, very afraid that in more complex situations when you want to insert longer passages with changing time signatures, Dorico’s AI regarding rhythmic notation will notate something I don’t want. In the end these kind of operations bust be possible with a few clicks, copying everything you want where you want and Dorico leaving ANYTHING in it UNTOUCHED.

The implementation of the Insert Mode for single staves have probably made this kind of stuff very difficult, but if I could choose between having Insert Mode or having the easy of use in Sibelius regarding selections, copying, inserting etc, I would with no doubt choose the latter.

Does the new system track solve the issues, I mentioned in the beginning of this topic? So far, in Anthony’s video and Johns Discover Dorico I only see adding and deleting empty bits of systems.
BTW Congrats to the team. Very, very impressed by the speed this software is developing. I didn’t buy the upgrade yet. Copying, inserting system selections without getting bars with wrong amounts of beats is crucial to me.