Is it true that VST3 can't receive midi PC?

Hi,

My recent Korg Wavestate Native vst3 plugin does not receive vst3, someone on FB told me that it is a limitation of vst3 protocol by Steinberg ?
Is it true ?
Or is it a Korg’s problem, because in their documentation they state we can change performance (the wavestate preset) by sending midi PC, just as in the physical Wavestate engine ?

You can send Program Change messages to any VSTi, there are no such limitations in VST3.

Problem seems less evident to dev teams
No Program Changes in VST3 - regrettable decision - Cubase - Steinberg Forums

I don’t know what you mean by “less evident”. Arne’s response sounded pretty clear cut to me.

And I don’t know what you mean by ‘pretty cut’ because the fact is that many plugins editor had problems moving from the way they managed midi PC in VST2 and the new paradigms for managing them just as an event (certainly better). Even a large company as Korg encounters problems implementing the reception of midi PC, and a smaller company as KV331 (synthmaster) missed it when migrating from vst2 to vst3 (but they apparently fixed this pb as soon as discovered).

You basically just answered your own question.

Is it true that VST3 can’t receive midi PC?

No, it is not true.

Manifestly you are not stupid and you have understood the implications of all this exchange : many plugin editors have not implemented midi PC in their vst3… so : many vst3 can’t receive midi PC…
I am sure you will find something to answer, but you have not bring any interesting answer, something to progress, to my question, just wasting time here.

But it is possible right?, Steinberg have said it’s possible. It’s on this forum answered by someone from Steinberg.

So the problem is with the plug-in developers, it seems like a fairly simple response. If a plug-in developer has not implemented it correctly that’s on them. There will be teething troubles when they first convert to vst3, there always is with software.

But if you have an issue with a plug-in you should go to the plug-in developer directly. There are a million made up stories about VST2 to VST3 conversions out there. It’s not worth asking anything about VST2 or VST2 functionality unless your a plug-in developer.

So really the question has nothing to do with VST3 or VST2, it’s why can I not send program changes on the Korg. That’s a question for korg directly.

Have you logged a support ticket with Korg about this issue ? Because they will not be reading this post to fix their issues.

Sorry but the problem seems to be harder than a simple two way if-then-else statement.
The fact is that a great number of my plugins were vst2. For those either the companies tried to create a vst3 either they refused arging that there was too many change versus vst2, that Steinberg was trying to push them abandonning midi for a larger frame, and when they tried they failed implementing the feature.
The case of Korg is special, they directly created a vst3, and in standalone version, it is working, but installed in a Cubase track, no transmition of PC. So strange.
They were not migrating from vst2, but for the code in their physical synths running a raspberry pi kernel.
And as there is nothing in vst3 spec about midi, they certainly though their usual API would continue working. But no chance.
So back to the global problem, I am a Cubase user and now I am discovering the parts of my work which no more work.

Sorry again but not totally.
I understand Steinberg strategy but fact is part of my plugins are out.
Do you understand, not sure but I try to explain my inner question.

Certainly, but people using the AAX versions of their plugin are now running, not me.

I am very active to solve my own problems and have contacted directly the main involved program managers or devs (or the 2). Companies are Korg, Fishman and KV331. 2 months after my Cubase 12 install I have many features NOK in my Cubase migrated projects.

Unfortunately, Korg’s recent implementation of the VST 3 protocol in their plugins has been kind of a mess, and not only regarding MIDI. Even more for us, Cubase users, as their VST 3 versions are currently unusable for recalling old projects that used the corresponding VST 2 versions. They simply make Cubase crash automatically on loading the songs. This is happening to me with both the Korg M1 and Wavestation v2.30 VST 3. Of course, I contacted Korg support almost a month ago about the issue. No response so far.

On the other hand, KV331 support is really great. Synthmaster 2 VST 3 had some initial problems regarding project recalling on Cubase, but the developer fixed them within hours, and both Synthmaster 2 and Synthmaster One VST 3s are working great now.

So it’s basically a complaint about the VST3 implementing which will be happening in maybe 2 years time.

I’m on the M1 so I am very aware of VST3 as I cannot use my VST2 without using blueCat Patchwork. I have spent some time checking in on developers and their VST3 releases. I have also checked the forums where I am consistently told there will be no VST3 of a plug-in or if there is it will cost me more and more money to buy it. Or that VST3 cannot handle midi.

Then Kontakt drops as VST3 which is all about midi and no one says, “hmmm maybe VST3 can do midi well”. Then Superior Drummer 3 gets converted to VST3 for free !.

I also have the Korg collection so I’m happy with that, have I ever sent a program change, nope, would I even bother if I could, nope. I would set up a 2nd instance on another track instead. Then automate which one I use at any given point.

In the past the Korg M1 VST2 crashed Cubase for about 6 months until they changed that. Korg have a history of issues with VST2 as well.

It is not the case that every VST2 ever made was perfect and VST3 is a mess. It’s been both and that rests in the plugin developers implementations.

I see synthmaster two is now vst3 and I’m waiting for their main synth to be converted which they are in the process of doing right now. After much talk I now see Serum is being tested as VST3, posted about four days ago, and the developer is expecting to release that next month.

Roland Cloud I’ve seen nothing in VST3 for or Sylenth.

So I’m waiting too but with the M1 I’m also getting developers saying they are still in the process of converting to ARM and it’s taken them months on end to do this. I’m just making do with what I can use.

That’s just how it works sometimes.

So what is the complaint ? First that no one is changing to VST3 but now they actually are your trying to find issues with the VST3 as a concept instead of complaining to the plug-in developers ?

In 2 years there will be no more VST2 plugins so if you want the best VST3 plugins then complain to the plug-in developers and let them work it out. If the developers say they will not sort it out then you are down a plug-in. I have not got the same plugins I had 10 years ago either, things change.

If you still want to use VST2 then just buy BlueCat Patchwork and keep using them.

If your not on M1 then this change might not even happen until C14.

Yes KV331 have a great dev (and project manager and owner :wink: ) I think he will push midi on the Steinberg way in next days.
For Korg it is special, Wavestate and Opsix are apparently built by different teams (same for plugins). I think they missed the point of midi in vst3, may be trying to gain time to market by doing a fast migration from their raspberry pi code. But the Wavestate project manager, Dan Phillips, is listening and I think/hope the fix delay will also be less than 1 month. Concerning CPU the last version has fixed my problems under C12. For Opsix Native it is a harder problem.
For Fishman, I fear they have not a great budget, the dev seems to be alone facing so many hardware/software pbs… From experience he gets problems solved (it took 2 years to have HALion working with Triple Play…).

And there are my other plugins I still have not tested under C12. The difficult point is when there is a working vst2 and a partially working vst3, C12 takes the vst3 and…

OT, But I have been down this crash rabbit hole and found a solution! Korg, for some reason, have made their current VST3 module a wrapper around the VST2 one - with the same ID! If Cubase sees VST2 and VST3 plugins with the same ID, only the VST3 one is loaded. So guess what happens to an old project looking for the VST2 one?? :-1:

I solved this by loading onto a machine without the VST3 version, swapping to another instrument, saving all fx/parameters .e.t.c , then back to the machine with the VST3 version and reconnect! Temporarily disabling the Instrument, loading and changing on the same machine would probably work as well.

So we need to ask Korg to use different IDs for VST3/VST2 plugins, like some other manufacturers do.

May be I prefer one ID for vst2 and vst3 BUT only if vst3 is working.
Your remark concerns Korg collection, isn’t it ? What a struggle you engaged !!!
Concerning Opsix and Wavestate Native, they are new and no vst2 exists for them.
Not a reason to partially implement the PC handling described in their documentation :wink:

Well, what I think we really need is Korg fixing their VST3s and improving their betatesting before releasing updates that make a host crash. I don’t think having separate IDs for VST2 and VST3 is a good solution in the long run. It could work in this particular case as you describe, but only as a workaround for a poorly implemented VST3 conversion. Ideally, VST2 and VST3 should use the same ID so we get backwards compatibility, that’s the way to go.

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