Kind of frustrating Auto-Save behavior

I didn’t realize that if you choose to not save your project when you close, that it also deletes all Auto-Saves aligned with that save state.
I was trying to go to a .bak file of a previous state of my project, and I located which one I wanted to open in the project folder.
However, when I closed the session, those .bak files disappeared as well. So I wasn’t able to go back to the state I wanted to go to.

I know now that I should have opened that .bak file before closing and not saving the session, or I should have saved the session. But this behavior kind of feels wrong to me. I guess it kind of makes sense, but it simultaneously defeats the purpose of the auto-save in my opinion.
Anybody else wish that it kept these .bak files even if you “don’t save” your project.

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Related prior discussion:

This is the standard behaviour with auto-save files in many applications. Their purpose is to get your project back in case of a crash, that is where they remain on disk. If you willingly close your project Cubase (and apps like Word, Excel, etc.) delete these auto-save files, because you decided to not save the project.

If you save the session these auto-save files will also disappear, because now you decided to save the latest state and there is no need to keep these .bak files around. They just clutter your disk.

Edit: Just saw the last post in the linked thread from @Nico5 and it has the exact same explanation.

I don’t believe this is true. That isn’t the sole purpose of .bak files . . . and I have tons of .bak files for every project — if what you’re saying is true, then I wouldn’t have any?

First Principle!
I know we all have have our own “workflows”, and I’m sure some of my methods would have people scratching their heads, but… Number One action of mine is to save my work, as soon as I’ve created the Project folder, and every few minutes while working. I even bought a flashy gaming mouse for the extra buttons so that I could assign one just to Save and another to Save As New Version (which is how I backup). Muscle memory means I don’t even notice when I save.
And, horror of horrors, I have Auto Save turned off.
I keep everything in the one Project Folder (which may also be a sub-folder of an “Album” folder), so the few seconds it takes to type in a random name, or even the the date (yyyy-mm-dd format), and then change it when I have a sensible name, is trivial.

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People who save after every key press clearly haven’t experienced saving of a broken project caused by a buggy VST that becomes impossible to reopen later.

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@reverse_entropy : If I understand you correctly - you want to save the bak files to go back to a state of the project prior to inserting a troublesome plugin or before it gets broken, right?
I assume you have tried to open a project with 3rd party plugins disabled and tried to delete the plugin that has gone South.

EDIT:
If you really want to keep the bak files even if there’s no crash:
Create a copy of the AutoSave folder in your project folder before you save/quit a project. Use a link on your desktop and just make it a routine.

I know, this takes extra time but this way you’d have the bak files in case you need them. And since automatic deletion of bak files after saving/quitting a project works just fine for most people this seems to be a resonable workaround.

Seems like certain *baks are only deleted when quitting a project without saving or when the maximum number of bak files is topped.

What I really want is Git or SVN for music production - not some dumb .bak files that get deleted if I don’t like the current version of a project and don’t save it. This behavior forces me to save even when I don’t want to. With version control, I could go back in history and recover earlier versions. But if I forget to save, my whole session disappears into the abyss.

I’ve never seen this behavior, but I’m on MacOS. My .bak files persist whether I save the project or not, new or existing, based on my Auto-Save settings.

This is my experience as well. New, blank projects (“Untitled1”) create .bak files in the Auto Saves folder under the default or selected folder. My .bak files auto-number themselves and 12 are retained (my setting) even through new projects if I’ve selected a common folder. Existing projects behave the same way, whether I save them after editing or not.

I’ve never seen any of the behavior being described above by others, crash or no crash (though I never have crashes), saving or not saving the project, or any other scenario.

My .bak files are only deleted when the “primary” filename project nomenclature exceeds the number of auto-saves specified in my settings for both Cubase and Nuendo.

Then there might indeed be a difference between Mac and Windows. I just checked on Windows 10:

Quitting a project without saving it will delete the last associated bak files. Bak files from previous sessions will be retained given that they were not already replaced due to the maximum number of permitted bak files in this folder.

Like @babble and @Thor.HOG , I can’t confirm this behaviour, too. Saving a session (no matter which way it is saved) does not result in deleted bak files, here.

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Interesting! On MacOS, if you’ve not saved the project, when you quit the project and explicitly say “Don’t save,” the .bak files are retained - even if you’ve told Cubendo to “delete new files created since the last time you saved the project” if you also happened to create media files. The media files will be gone, but the .bak remains.

I have no recollection of it ever NOT being this way.

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I got to admit that I’ve never closely monitored the bak file behaviour before so I can’t say if this was the case in previous versions, too. However, these findings indicate that there is a OS related inconsistency at least for Cubase 14.0.32.

That’s indeed strange since it doesn’t seem to make sense to keep the associated bak files with their latest files deleted. I’d say this can be regarded as an “issue” although we are not talking about a vital disfunctional behaviour here.

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To me, I’ve never even considered that auto-saves would be deleted “automatically” regardless of project save state. I’m not even sure how Cubase would know which .bak files related to the “temp” project as opposed to .bak files in common/default folders created for other Untitled1 projects. In my mind, if I ask Cubase to create an auto-save every 5 minutes and to save sets of 20 of them, then that’s what I expect to happen.

If they DID automatically delete associated .bak files when the project wasn’t saved, then they would also have to have contextual awareness of saves between loads of existing projects, distinct from “new” projects. Otherwise they’d also delete the .bak files created after loading a saved project, creating .bak files, and the user saying “don’t save” on exit. I think that would be a nightmare to keep track of both developmentally, and from a user-awareness perspective.

Interesting, though. I think testing needs to be done. FYI, I explicitly verified the behavior myself before posting my response, so this is confirmed on my end…

Personally, I would never use a new, untested plugin in a current project, or even a serious project. If it proved to be unstable, I wouldn’t use it, no matter how wonderful it was. And it only has to crash once, no second chance. My work is too important. To me, anyway. :upside_down_face:
Ergo, I have no “buggy VST” in my VST3 folder. And no, I have never experienced a “broken project caused by a buggy VST”.
I stopped expecting software to be perfect within weeks of getting my first computer. I stopped trusting it soon after.
But, as always, each to his own. :heart_eyes:

First off, thanks for all the time you spent testing the various approaches in project management. I’ll use your post here to reply from with “new” information:

In all transparency, I have no skin in this game. The way MacOS works is precisely how I expect it to work, and what my entire “temporary canvas” workflow is built upon. I suppose I’m even being a bit selfish, because if this behavior changes on Mac to mimic Windows, I’ll be rather put off.

To everyone else following this thread, here’s what we found. It seems like MacOS and Windows both handle .bak files similarly, except for the rather import difference that Windows will indeed DELETE .BAK FILES associated with the unsaved project you’re working on when you exist without saving. So @Reco29’s and @JuergenP ‘s comments now make perfect sense. On MacOS, the bak files are saved, and even span multiple unsaved projects while still being cleaned up by the Auto Save parameter rotation settings. To me, this is ideal.

I presume you’re on Windows then, correct? I totally agree with you. I don’t think the software should think for me. I set up .bak files to be created, and they should be. Just because I choose not to save a project doesn’t mean the .bak files should go away.

While I’m not sure Windows actually deletes .bak files after saving (in C14, anyway), I found the “clutter” comment interesting, as to me the clutter would happen if I was forced to save a project in order to retain the .bak files.

I start blank projects in a specific temp folder on purpose, knowing that my .bak files will be created and maintained “12-deep,” whether I save or not. If I’m into a creative session “long enough,” then I’ll Save to an appropriate folder structure, or just save it right in the temp depending on what I’m doing. No matter what, the original “Untitled1-xx-xxxx.bak” files are kept. When I create a new project the next day, the 12 backups I’ve set are included in that rotation for the new project. It’s perfect for me, and just because I don’t save a project doesn’t mean I may not want to go back and retrieve some work.

What I would NOT want is to be “forced” to save a project just to retain the .baks - that would result in all manner of clutter…. I’d have temporary project files created only because I had to, and each one of those could have multiple baks files.

To me, this rather well supports the OP’s frustration with deleting bak files. As a Mac user, I’d be pretty torqued if this behavior changed.

The real reason I got through all this is not just to identify the very different behavior between OS’s, but really to identify that nowhere in the documentation is any of this covered. All these discussions about it without identifying that MacOS and Windows behave entirely differently, yet not even a mention of how .bak files work in the help file tells me that we need a better way of at least communicating to SB “hey guys, please document this.”

Anyone think that adding a “#DocumentationRequired” tag is a good idea? It would only work if SB looked at it, but I think everyone can agree that the docs in general are not very thorough, and “regular users” may be a good source of when and where Support could begin filling in the gaps.

Just a thought.

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I’m the one who created this thread, and I’m on Mac OS. .bak files delete for me when closing an unsaved project — or even a project that is saved but not in its current state.

On MacOS 15.6.1 on both my MBP M3 Max and Studio M3 Ultra, retention of .bak files irrespective of project stave status has been confirmed through multiple different tests with both Cubase and Nuendo. I even went as far as to enable Full Disk Access to see if not having that set (which almost no applications of mine have) made a difference, and it doesn’t.

This has been consistent through any 15.x version on either machine for me.

Sorry, but I don’t understand this. Maybe your OS version, or possibly your system architecture matters?

I think @babble is referring to the deletion of bak files in another session with a project that has been saved before but which has not been saved at the end of the current session while quitting.

It would be interesting to learn which Mac OS works as expected and which refuses to delete bak files. We learn very little abput how bak files work in general, neither in Cubase 14 nor in previous versions. Which brings me to my next point:

I think @Thor.HOG made an excellent point when it comes to pointing out blind spots in the manual by adding a special tag. This would be a win/win for everyone! The handling of bak files is a fine example in this regard. Knowing how they work definetly impacts my routine and I would have appreciated if there had been more information.

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To me, not deleting .bak files IS “working as expected.” But yes, the key point here is that I don’t think we should be put in the position of even having to debate what the “expected” behavior is - that’s what documentation is for.

I’ll create a separate thread regarding the creation of a new tag and see if it gets traction.

In addition to being properly documented, the establishment of what “expected behavior” is in the first place can inform meaningful feature requests. If SB is going to have silent, undocumented functions that delete all backup files predicated on logic presumptions of “if they exit without saving that can only mean they want all backup files deleted,” then they should have added a preference for that at the very least. If I have auto saves set for every 5 minutes and rotating through 15 files, and I accidentally click “don’t save” instead of save, Cubendo going back and just deleting ALL backups isn’t just counter-intuitive and (potentially) high-impact, but it doesn’t really accomplish anything anyway. The leftover auto-save instances are ALREADY CLEANED UP when of the same project name, saved or unsaved. So the only possible outcome is “potential loss to the user.”

Again, on my systems, this already works as expected TO ME. But this entire dialog clearly indicates that it could change and I wouldn’t know it, and I’d have to change my workflow. It’s not the end of the world, but it’s still an unwarranted change (to me).

Backup file creation and management should be very well documented with specific use cases clearly explained in my opinion.

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Yes that is correct. I am on Ventura 13.6.5, btw. M2 Max.