I am in the early stages of using VEPro 8 with Dorico 6 and hope to build a VEP Server template for orchestra that I can use repeatedly. I suspect the way to do this might be to make parallel “master” templates for Dorico Playback and VEPro Server, each containing virtually all instruments I might use and the two templates having matching port and channel assignments along with appropriate expression map assignments in the Dorico template. I could then start new projects with the master Dorico template and delete from it included instruments I won’t be using. Similarly, unused instruments would be deleted from the VEPro server template and the names of both modified templates changed in order to keep the two “master” templates unchanged and ready for future orchestral projects.
Does this sound like a plan that will work? Are there other, better ways of avoiding the laborious task of creating new templates for every project with VEP?
I do it almost like you are suggesting: One Dorico “template” with every conceivable instrument paired with the VEP server project with the same instruments.
What I don’t do is delete any instrument until the very end (and never from VEP server). I rather select/unselect wanted/unwanted instruments for the flow I’m working on. Only after all notes have been input and proofed (as best as possible) do I go to Dorico setup and remove unused instruments.
If you create one project with all your instruments in it, connected to VEPro for each instrument, you can then save the endpoint config and make a playback template. Then for future projects you can add just the instruments you need in Dorico and the playback template will assign them to the correct outputs in VEPro.
It does mean that in VEPro all your instruments are always loaded (potential for more resources/electricity being used unnecessarily I suppose), but it will save you waiting for Dorico to load the sounds directly, and you won’t need to spend time deleting instruments you don’t want.
This is basically how my Iconica Sections & Players VEPro template works ( Playback Template – Dorico ).
When I set up this sort of template, I tend to work in instrument families, e.g. have one project with just woodwinds and save that endpoint, then one for brass etc etc. Then add all those endpoints to one playback template.
That works but there are caveats documented throughout this forum, e.g., new instrument attempts to load the VEP VST and connect to an already connected instance, IVP etc. If one isn’t going to the add new instruments, then the project template needs to be saved with the current flow (checkbox).
Also, if you have IVP set up and routed for the template, creating a new flow loses that routing. You have to duplicate the project template flow to keep the routing intact.
I find it simpler to have a normal Dorico project as a template that I just Save as…
With the Iconica version I did there are e.g. two of most woodwinds loaded in VEPro, so as long as you only add e.g. two flutes in Dorico it will use both of those. If you add e.g. a third flute in Dorico then you’d need to add a new instance in VEPro too (e.g. by duplicating the Woodwinds instance as shown here, and manually connecting just that instance to Dorico).
That’s actually my point. If you go to the trouble of creating endpoints and playback templates wrapped in a project template, new instruments (as in a 3rd flute in your example) aren’t handled correctly. If the playback template is active, Dorico will attempt to connect to the existing woodwinds instance in VEP and fail.
If you just use a silent template (my preference) with a fully loaded Dorico project as a template, new instruments do nothing.
The Master Dorico Project Template in combination with a corresponding VEP project, with all you could ever need, is definitely recommendable if you use independent voice playback. With Dorico playback templates you will get a mess with IVP.
I normally use coupled instances. So if I cleaned up a Dorico project deactivating all unused instruments and unused full instances (or deleting them if they are at the bottom of the rack), the next time you load the Dorico project with just the VEP open but no project loaded, only what you need is loaded automatically.
Ideally you’d make a template that includes the largest number of instruments you might need (or maybe even falls back to use some locally loaded instruments). Either way, using a template to load most of what you need would still be quicker in most cases? If not, you have your preferred method
Thank you @derAbgang , @John_at_Steinberg and @mavros for your helpful responses! I think I understand most of what has been said but have some related questions.
Do you make mixer adjustments using the server screen even if there are many unused instruments? I anticipate using the server screen as the mixer and want to make things easier to use by deleting unused instruments. However, I realize I will have to be careful not to accidentally erase the master server template in the process.
In my very limited experience, when I add needed instruments to Dorico my VEP Playback Template assigns only instruments using port 1 to the correct VEP outputs. Instruments using ports 2 and up aren’t even assigned to the VEP vst. Am I missing something?
This is good to know as most of my instruments use VSL’s Synchron Player which routes to only one channel—four first violins require four Synchron Players. However, both you and @mavros mention difficulties using IVP with Vienna Ensemble Pro and I wonder if there are particular things I should take care to do or avoid.
Can this problem can be avoided by adding new instruments to both Dorico and VEP Server before connecting the two apps?
Again, thanks to all for your help which just confirms my strongly held opinion that this is best forum out there!
Yes. Although in fairness, I rarely touch individual faders in VEP anymore.
Like I wrote above, save the project template with the flow (checkbox) then use duplicate flow instead of new flow inside the project.
The problem doesn’t have anything to do with the connection between the two apps. If you have a default (Auto) or have applied a playback template, Dorico will attempt to load the endpoint (vst) associated with the new instrument when you add it. When I created my template, I started a new, empty Dorico project (and eventually Saved as Project Template) with the Silent playback template which avoids all the automation involved.
Thanks @derAbgang but I am missing something important that I will have to look at tomorrow as it is just after 1 am here. Your idea seems elegant and appealing but whenever I apply the Silence playback template all routing information disappears from my Dorico project and doesn’t return when I load a VEP server project with the same instruments regardless of whether I first load the needed VST instances of VEP into Dorico. I don’t understand how I can get the routing information into Dorico without manually entering it for every project but that is what we both want to avoid.
Also, although I have a successfully functioning project using a single VEP server instance addressing 4 ports I haven’t been able to manage a functioning project using multiple server instances each limited to 16 channels on port 1. You advised yesterday that such projects require a separate VEP instance in Dorico for each of the server instances and I have tried this but can still connect only one instance at a time. Connecting a new instance works but it disconnects the earlier one in the process.
Critical point above was that I applied the Silent template to a new, empty Dorico project. You will, indeed, trash all playback settings by applying the Silent template on an existing project.
My mention of the silent template was when I first started building my template, not for any Dorico project after the template was complete.
Do you mean multiple servers or multiple instances in the same server project (although, honestly it shouldn’t matter)?
I’ve never seen this behavior.
Try going step-by-step.
With Dorico closed, load your saved VEP Server Project with multiple instances
Open an new, empty Dorico project
Apply Silent playback template
Go to the Play tab and add VE Pro VST
Connect to an instance
Add a second VE Pro VST in slot 2 (index 03)
Connect to a different instance
If that works and you are connected to 2 different instances, then I’m sorry to say, I don’t quite understand the exact problem you are encountering.
Well thanks to you @derAbgang things are working better for me in VEP and my understanding is improving in spite of embarrassing mistakes.
My first success with VEP and Dorico was with a VEP project having one server instance and four ports with up to 16 channels each and this undoubtedly contributed to me later trying to connect multiple VE Pro server instances to the same VE Pro VST instance in Dorico. Thanks to you the logic of the process makes sense now and I no longer have problems connecting multiple VEP server instances to a Dorico project.
In the process of making a simple Dorico template with two instruments accessing separate VE Pro server instances I have followed your guidelines re starting with a Silent Dorico PT. As you suggested this has allowed me to add additional corresponding instruments to Dorico and VE pro server without connection failures.
You say that your “mention of the silent template was when I first started building my template, not for any Dorico project after the template was complete”. I assume from this that you remove the Silent PT at some stage but if so I don’t understand why. My thought is that if I start with a Silent Dorico PT and create a Dorico template for use with VEP that properly connects to VEP based on the Play Mode routing assignments there is no reason to change the Silent Dorico PT. Am I missing something?
No, I don’t re-apply a different template. I just leave the Silent template applied so nothing under the covers happens when I add a new instrument - which I rarely do these days as my large template has every conceivable instrument in it.
I initially went with a Project template with a saved flow but after “saving” it, the changes I made to expression maps etc in subsequent files, didn’t automatically transfer to the Project template. So instead, I opted for a simple dorico project that I treat as a template and if I make changes in another piece to maps etc., I jot it down and make the change in my main project file.
Thanks, me too! I think many of my difficulties could have been avoided with a clear step-by-step guide to creating a basic project that uses VE Pro—something in the nature of Dorico’s First Steps guide. I have contacted VSL and suggested the same.
