music samples in prefatory remarks

Hi, I’d like a way to enter music samples in prefatory remarks to a large orchestral score.

I’m using Music Frames from engrave mode for this (pictured)…but I think this isn’t really the right tool. Is there a way to open a simple clef, copy some relevant music from the score, and include some explanatory text next to it?

I think you are on the right track. I would make as much text frames as music frames, and then they snap to each other when editing.

I agree with Nikola that you are absolutely on the right track. I suggest that perhaps adding extra dedicated flows to contain the prefatory material would work better than trying to coerce the original flows from which the material is drawn to be displayed in those kinds of mini frames.

When you do this, though, you will need to open the master page editor in Engrave mode and edit the default ‘MA’ frame chain so that it does not include the flows that contain the prefatory material: otherwise you will find that those flows show up at the end of the score layout on additional pages.

Daniel, do I understand correctly: If I have extra flows with prefatory material, I will in the Masterpage Editor have to generate a new Masterpage with a different frame chain (not MA) and apply this new Masterpage to the extra flows? Generate a new Masterpage based on the Default and edit this new Masterpage’s music frame, so it does not belong to MA?

I think you will have to make sure that there is no MA chain at all in your masterpages, otherwise Dorico will always add the necessary pages to output ALL your flows (including the small ones for the prefatory pages)

[Edit] this is wrong, as Daniel rightly indicates just down there :wink:

Marc, thank you.
I will try this on a new project, as this one is actually more or less ready to print and I’ll rather keep it as it is for the moment (it is easy enough to just shorten my Score.pdf by two pages)…

You don’t necessarily have to completely replace the MA frame chain with layout-specific frames: you can instead, as I indicated, unassign the flows that you don’t want to see in the main frame chain from the MA frame chain in the master page editor.

You’re right Daniel! I always forget about unassigning flows. This operation is rather simple then!

ok, I gave it another try:

  1. I opened the Gloria page in Engrave Mode, Frames switched on. As I can see, the little introduction is in frame Chain LF 1, the Gloria itself in MA 1:

Now I go to the end of my score and change the Gloria Introduction Frame from MA 1 to LF 1.
The Introduction is still visible at the right place (on page 18), but not anymore on the flow page. Instead another page with Flow MA 1 is added (see here):

If I here Unlink Frame MA 1, the whole score will start from there again… mmh
Do I have to create another masterpage just for the Intonation?
I think I need a step by step help for this one…


k_b,

When editing in the Master Page Editor, are you remembering to copy the layout from Left to Right (or Right to Left)? Have you perhaps added pages with page overrides? If so, deleting these might solve your issue.

musicmaven,

in the Master Page Editor I have the Default Set plus an additional Page (L/R) for the beginning of new flows.
As you can see above, the extra flow with the Gloria Intonation does use the First Master Page (unedited).
The Gloria itself I have overridden with the Masterpage for new Flows and manually inserted the Music frame.
The pages at the end, which I want to get rid of have no overrides.

I now created a new Master Page- just for the Intonations, unlinked the (only) MA Frame chain. Again my whole score became a mess (it was a Mass before :wink: so I deleted the newly crated Masterpages (pair) to get back where I started. But now no music was seen in the main score besides the two Intonations, why? It seemed the First Master Page had changed while I was creating the new Master Page…
I opened the First Master Page in the Editor and had to re-assign the MA Frame Chain and tick to select all flows. Luckily the music reappeared, hopefully how I had it setup in the first place…The whole thing seems counter intuitive to me, I have not yet figured out how to do it. To me it seems that at this point Dorico starts separating intelligent users from normal ones (like me)…

I’m guessing you created the new First masterpage based on an existing masterpage. And we know these are linked (I do not remember in which video I saw that, and indeed it is not intuitive).
I feel you got that work quite complicated. The advice Daniel gave you was quite simple : create your additional flows, and get them out of the Masterpage automatic chain (unticking them in the masterpages editor, third column of each music frame). Those flows would only show in manually created music frames, where you select the flow and the instruments that must show in each music frame.
If I understand your score well, this would mean the whole Mass would fit in the MA chain, and intonation would come first in a Lsomething chain. As would any other flow from your prefatory remarks (each of one being a singular Lsomething chain). I hope this is clear enough…

Thanks Marc, I will give it another try. And yes, the ewly created Master Page I based on another newly created one…
So I will start with a completely new and blank Master Page, add a music frame and transfer my little Intonations there to…

I have now created a new Master Page with just one Music Frame.
They are called MM 1
I have applied this new Master Page to the Intonation flows (at the end of my setup).
I changed the two small music frames at the beginning of the Gloria and beginning of the Credo to be Frame Chain MM 1.
Works well, the right music is been displayed:

At the end of my score the two Intonations disappeared and left one empty page with only a music frame MM 1 behind, see here:


And now I can not get rid of this one … grr
Credo.png
Gloria.png

Dear k_b,
I really think you’re complicating the project by insisting in making those little flows automatically inserted via masterpages… I would have created manually some music frames in Engrave mode, Frames mode on.
I’m wondering whether the last page could just disappear if you remove the masterpage change it has (judging by the green line).

Hi Marc,
thank you for your reply.
If I remove the last masterpage change I am back to the two flows with the intonations…
Somewhere I have to input the music for the two little frames, and this can only be done in their own flows - or am I making wrong conclusions?
Step 1: in Engrave Mode I add a music frame at the beginning of the Gloria. Now I want to input music there.
Step 2: I have to assign an Instrument to appear in that frame, I choose one of the existing singers (Tenor Solo)
Step 3: I add a new Flow at the end - where else should I notate the music?
Step 4: I assign a newly created Masterpage with a new Music Frame Chain to these extra flows at the end.
Step 5: I go back to the two frame inserts and change their Frame Chain to the newly created Chain.
Result, there is this blank page at the end…

Remove the master page change from page 149.

pianoleo, if I remove the last Master Page change on page 149, the two flows will be back - each with Master Page First assigned to them and the music back in Music Frame MA 1.

Dear k_b,
I’ve just tried on one of my files to check I was not fooling you. Here’s a screen capture, where you can see that I selected on my Masterpages to only display Danse Macabre, my first flow. I noticed that this had to be done only once : the right page of the first masterpage and both pages of Default masterpages changed to displaying only that first flow.
I added a blank page at the end, created two music frames where I selected the second flow for the first frame and the last flow for the last frame. Then I added two text frames where I could have written any remarks. Of course those music frames could have been created wherever I want. Maybe I’m just misunderstanding something you are trying to achieve. If not, I hope this will make sense to you.

Dear k_b,

This is a bit on the wordy side, (sorry), but I feel it’s important to the discussion.

I think what Marc is saying is that it is much easier to add the intonations by using local frame chains and not Master chain frames. You can achieve that by drawing in frames directly on the page where you want them, and not using the Master Page Editor to do this. You do not need multiple Master Pages, just the First and the Default. I like to think of the Master Page and Master Page Frames as the layout for the main composition material, and add in music frames locally (on the page itself - not using the Master Page Editor) for all the extra source music, intonations, prefatory stuff, etc.

Perhaps it can be done all with Master Pages, but it seems to add complexity. Remember that you can’t specify flows or players using a Master Page Frame Chain unless it is done in the Master Page Editor (which restricts things a bit when you come to pages that are different). Therefore, the real power lies in using local frame chains where the page is different because you can specify flows and players for each frame.

If your goal is to have a consistent or same look for the pages with the prefatory material, this could be easily achieved by copying the frames to another page to get a duplicate of any frames at the exact same position on another page. This is done by going to Engrave Mode, turning on Frame editing, selecting the desired frames, right-clicking on the page you want to copy to (upper left under Pages – the page will get a blue border showing it is selected), then select “Copy Selected Frames to Selected Pages”. After this operation, you will see your frame(s) duplicated on the indicated page, with their exact relative positioning, but with the original source material showing. (By default, Dorico retains the source material when duplicating frames, and you need to undo this default behavior.) The next important step is to click the Frame Chain dropdown and choose “Unlink”. Then you can specify a new flow and/or players for this duplicated frame! (Pretty cool, not well documented, and much easier to do than it appears in these instructions). This way of “duplicating” the look of pages is similar to using a Master Page layout approach, with the enhancement and freedom of specifying flows and players that are changing over the course of the project. Of course, at any page, you can always draw in frames wherever you want, but copying frames and their exact positioning is sometimes exactly what is desired.

An alternate way of achieving consistency is by using the same margin offest numbers (rather than trying to use a Master Page). This allows you to just draw in your frames manually and adjust them exactly as another page by putting in the same offsets. I personally find this approach cumbersome, involving jotting down all the numbers on a piece of paper and then going in and typing in the same margin information using the Property Panel.

You may find the following post helpful, as I give a simple example of Master Page frame chains and Local frame chains. In this example, my prefatory material is text only, but could have easily been music frames using flows of music snippets, which is the design you are looking for. The concept is the same:

[post #2]

https://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=246&t=134627