Non-Linear in Cubase 12

Is it finally going to happen?

OK we could guess what you mean, but easier would be you explain it better…

Groove / Clip / Session / Jam …loop triggering. You know what I mean. Every other major DAW has it. Even S1 is dropping hints. Oh wait, Pros Tools got Clip Spaces or something or other this year… wasn’t that. Made everyone think it was, but Pros Tools isn’t a songwriter or composer’s tool, and hasn’t been for decades. It’s now an Expected feature of a DAW in the 2020s. Are we finally going to get it in Cubase 12?

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Do you mean a feature like this?: Arrange like a boss- FINISH your tracks! #cubase #arrangertrack - YouTube

No. I don’t.
If you’re referring to an Ableton Live style of software, I don’t care for this kind of features.

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Don “Boom!” Sigalas is always so thrilled with everything. I wonder if he is ever grumpy. That’s what I mean, though, to use the ar-anger track you have to stop playing, stop creating, stop the music. I want to play 32 bars hit a footswitch, put the guitar down, pick up the bass, and jam along with what I just played, hit the foot switch. Put the bass down, footswitch, remove the guitar part that was playing, and play keys, then footswitch, back to guitar, only was that 36 bars that time? yea… keep going like that. Grooving, bring that original guitar part back in, and a synth. Grooving, feeling it.

The arranger track is in post.

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So surprised to find people who don’t care for that kind of feature. I mean, it’s in every other DAW now. What don’t you like? The fact that DJs use it to piece together loops that someone else produced? Does it remind you of a toy? Have you tried using it to just groove? Are you an engineer or a musician? Are you and artist? A composer? What do you think of Trad? Jazz? much of the worlds music is made this way. Even Bach. Why is it that there is a feature that is desired by so many and you want to come in and say, “I don’t want that!!!”. Why not just not say anything? I probably read through 10 feature requests I could care less for, but I didn’t go complaining on the thread about how I don’t want it. What is it about this feature that makes you want to speak out and complain about it? Are you afraid it will make you obsolete or something? Because that’s probably a valid fear for some.

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hello, I’ll tell you mine without controversy. I would be much happier if C12 was enhanced in those parts strictly related to recording / editing. I prefer the development team’s efforts to focus on this, on fixing bugs.

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I wouldn’t want to see Cubase change to a DJ style app/culture.

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You can bring in loops into Groove Agent and trigger them to create compositions, just enable audio warp in the samples tab and they will sync to the tempo (Select all the pads and you only have to set this once):-

Just make sure all the samples are in the same group and set to polyphony 1 to prevent overlapping:-

However, there’s two things that stop this from being like traditional clip launchers.

  1. The “Key on del” (Delays the key on / Left side of first screenshot above ‘continous’) option has a sync mode, which quantizes every trigger (Such as Ableton etc.) - however, Groove agent immediately cancels out the previous pad BEFORE the one you’ve hit starts in time!! (ARRGGHHH!)

  2. There’s no trigger mode for continual loop (ARRRGGHHH - Again :slight_smile: )

If they fixed those two issues it could be a whole lot more fun.

Obviously not the level of non-linear production you’re hoping for, but there is at least ‘some’ method there. Annoying that in Impact XT (Studio One) this is a breeze, and you also don’t have to go crawling through the most stupidly small icons that have no labels.

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“Don “Boom!” Sigalas is always so thrilled with everything”
So annoying,not even my 9 years daughter behaves like that!

That’s exactly how I use to do it. I don’t use MIDI for clips, but it is much easier to use the performance pads in this way. To use Audio Clips nicely you have to have a note referencing the instrument pad you put the sample on that is the same length as the sample. It’s cumbersome.

To get around that I reworked a Kontakt script (because HALion doesn’t have MIDI out!!!) that quantizes to bar or more. But at that point using Groove Agent wasn’t as tidy as making a list of Sampler Tracks, which are easier to drag and drop into. I set it up so that the samplers are always in the upper region, and always align with a macro/PLE for a given Channel, so when I record there, it automatically skips the upper region to the group of clips.

I was well off on this example because the click was off, and I just did it to make the screenshot. Still, it’s aligned just right. Drag and drop, but then click continuous and zero crossing. Those do not save with the lock, but audio warp does.

The arrangement can be recorded as the midi triggers, and it is all controllable from the launchpad. including versioning the last recording. It’s nice to have the original performance for mixing later, especially with guitar.

I find samplers just easier to work with, but harder to set up. But once you have an arrangement recorded to midi (and to audio), you have that midi note to drop into the performance pad in GA. But I don’t do that anymore. I never find that midi clips/loops are needed unless I notice something off at some point, maybe I will, but which take it was is apparent in the sampler which matches the version, so I can go back and get it and fix it, and dub new audio for that clip. But I prefer to just record the take over. Still, the midi is useful for pulling sheet.

I’m willing to share the setup. Still working out a few kinks here and there. The overdub feature was buggy, and it only has one pass now, where it use to have multiple, and I don’t have the volume changes worked in any more. That is what is being worked on in this screen shot. Thing is, you can ignore the whole bottom section and just use the clip part. Nothing in the lower track configuration is important for making the clips work, other than the “MIDI Looper ~Synth” track to record the trigger performance, and the associated audio track and bus(group) to record the audio, but you can render in place so you don’t even need those.

Anyway, the functionality is all there, it’s so close. Mostly just UI task for Steinberg engineers.

Come on, I love Don! He’s amazing. I just imagine that he get’s frustrated sometimes too. I don’t have any trouble imagining Chris Selim, Tom Holkenborg, or Guy Michelmore getting frustrated with Cubase (in ever increasing orders of intensity), but it’s hard to imagine Dom in one of those moments when it just doesn’t work out and the day’s efforts seem to fall apart. So it makes me giggle to think about it. “Boom! that wasn’t at all an effective use of my time.” Head nods to the rhythm, with that same smile. By the way, check out his Padshop expansion.

I’ll tell you mine without controversy. I would be much happier if C12 was enhanced in those parts strictly related to recording / editing. I prefer the development team’s efforts to focus on this, on fixing bugs.

I wouldn’t want to see Cubase change to a DJ style app/culture.

Both valid point! But as I said above, this isn’t that big of a feature request. The guts are all there in Cubase alone, with Groove Agent in the mix, it’s really all there, mostly just a UI task.

And as far as a DJ style culture goes, I know what you are getting at. But in a day when Glenn Fricker is recording Metal in Fruity Loops, I think the genera culture per DAW thing is over. The Berklee and Juliard crowds are all on Ableton.

It’s hard to get most anyone under 20 interested in making music with Cubase, they all want these features that are in Ableton, and now Logic. Cubase is seen as seriously limiting creativity. And I’m not talking about techno loop DJs. I mean serious musicians. And if Cubase hopes to continue to compete in any genre of pop and country music, other than maybe Christian, it’s going to have to step up it’s game.

I see it more as survival rather than loosing the culture to one group that is going to make their style of noise one way or another. I love grooving. That’s why I spent a lot of ridiculous time and energy into continuing to do my thing with my DAW of choice. But realistically, learning and using Live is now a necessity to be able to interact with younger musicians, and you can bet that Ableton isn’t going to never step up to be a competitive mixing platform. Logic already is. As far as composing goes, many film scores already incorporate Live in the process, and sooner or later non-linear techniques are going to become integral to getting the feel directors are looking for.

Being worried about the culture of the app changing is like a composer wanting to stick to a piano and pen and paper because “those pesky new wave techno punks” are into komplete kontrol and MIDI, and Cubase… like when MIDI was all it did.

I’m sure there were composers who wanted to stick to engraving because they didn’t want the culture of scoring to be flooded with the likes of ABBA and the Bank Street Music Writer. Now we have Dorico,

What has the world come to? What could be worse. If they put non-linear songwriting tools in to Cubase, the next thing you know even Dub FX, Ladytron , or, shudder, Infected Mushroom will be using it!

Oh wait… :wink:

Interesting, gonna fire up Cubase and have a play… :slight_smile:

I totally understand that there is a need for tools like Ableton or Bitwig because there are people who like to use those tools.
On the other hand there are people who have their creative processes and their workflow based on tools like Cubase which evolved by imitating the production process based on multitrack recorders and mixers.

What I don`t understand is the need that every tool should be good for everything. Let Cubase be Cubase and let Live be Live so that everybody can choose the tool which fits best for him. In other words: I love accoustic instruments for what they are good at and I love electric instruments as well. But I would never judge the sound of a Steinway Grand against a Fender Rhodes or demand that the next Steinway grand should emulate a Rhodes. I like both sounds and if I want a Steinway for a song - I try to use one. Why should all tools become one tool?

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You may want these:

Kontakt - stopped when I got to bar, but the structure is there for more. You could also set each clip individually, but I’m hopping that isn’t necessary real soon :slight_smile:

{***********************************************
Input Quantize
Author: Oqion SC
Written by: [based on] Josef Natterer, Nicki Marinic native instruments
   ...who left all the notes on....
Modified: January 2022
*************************************************}

on init

	set_script_title("Clip Trigger")
	set_ui_height(2)
	message("")

	declare $time_length
	declare $rest_bar_time
	declare $rest_click_time
	declare $helper
	
	declare !tempo_names[3]
	!tempo_names[0] := "1/4"
	!tempo_names[1] := "1/2"
	!tempo_names[2] := "Bar"
	
	declare polyphonic $art_id
	
	declare const $Amount := 100
	
	{--Knob--per}
	declare $last_synctype
	declare ui_knob $synctype (0,2,1)
	set_text ($synctype,"Rate")
	$synctype := 2
	set_knob_defval ($synctype,2)
	set_knob_label ($synctype,!tempo_names[$synctype])
	make_persistent ($synctype)

	{----- Init -----}

	$last_synctype := 2

	{----- Recall -----}

	make_persistent ($last_synctype)
	

end on

on note

	ignore_event($EVENT_ID)

	select ($synctype)
		case 0
			$time_length := $DURATION_QUARTER
		case 1
			$time_length := $DURATION_QUARTER*2
		case 2
			$time_length := $DURATION_BAR
		case 3
			$time_length := $DURATION_BAR*2		
	end select

	$rest_bar_time := $DURATION_BAR - $DISTANCE_BAR_START
	$rest_click_time := ($rest_bar_time+(10*$DURATION_BAR)) mod $time_length

	if ($rest_bar_time mod ($time_length*2) < $time_length)
		$helper := ($rest_click_time*$Amount)/100
		if ($helper > 0)
			wait($helper)
		end if
	else
		$helper := ((($rest_bar_time mod ($time_length*2)) - $time_length)*$Amount)/100
		if ($helper > 0)
			wait($helper)
		end if
	end if
	
	{ bank trigger solution - notes c0 to b0 are bank triggers
	  so we send the all off CC and then the same note 1-7   set_controller(CC = 123, value = 127)}
	

	$art_id := play_note($EVENT_NOTE,$EVENT_VELOCITY,0,0)

end on

on release
	if (%EVENT_PAR[0] = 1)
		exit
	end if

	ignore_event($EVENT_ID)

	select ($synctype)
		case 0
			$time_length := $DURATION_QUARTER
		case 1
			$time_length := $DURATION_QUARTER*2
		case 2
			$time_length := $DURATION_BAR
		case 3
			$time_length := $DURATION_BAR*2		
	end select

	$rest_bar_time := $DURATION_BAR - $DISTANCE_BAR_START
	$rest_click_time := ($rest_bar_time+(10*$DURATION_BAR)) mod $time_length

	if ($rest_bar_time mod ($time_length*2) < $time_length)
		$helper := ($rest_click_time*$Amount)/100
		if ($helper > 0)
			wait($helper)
		end if
	else
		$helper := ((($rest_bar_time mod ($time_length*2)) - $time_length)*$Amount)/100
		if ($helper > 0)
			wait($helper)
		end if
	end if
	
	{ This does nothing !!!!!!!!!!
		note_off($art_id) seriously nothing. No midi output with note off
		
		Playing a 0 (as many midi systems expect) doesn't work because kontact sets the value
		to 1 even though you sent a 0.
		
		Use "kontakt note_off bug workaround" Midi Tranformer preset in Cubase whihc transforms 0 or 1 to 0.
	}
	
	$art_id := play_note($EVENT_NOTE,1,0,0) 

  
end on

on ui_control ($synctype)
	set_knob_label ($synctype,!tempo_names[$synctype])
end on


Launchpad sysx I assume you can make it from the info provided:

Groove Trigger.zip (498 Bytes)

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Cubase’s composing style is nearly perfect. The real big problem is Cubase can’t chase incoming MIDI Clock.

Clip style management would be handy but I wouldn’t want a Session type view in Cubase. I use Ableton a lot more than I do Cubase honestly, but I never touch session view. The linear workflow that Cubase, Logic, Pro Tools, etc all came from is where I came from, so I work that way in the arrangement view. Ableton just happens to be able to handle things neatly as clips so I can copy/paste/manipulate things a little bit easier. My tracks are all exported and mixed elsewhere. We don’t need every DAW trying to cover the ground all the other ones do and losing their focus on what they do best.

Valsolim,

Do tell! How to accomplish the same thing as that Kontakt script in a Lua script in HALion, so that it quantizes (and filters) the notes coming and sends them out again.