Nuendo 7.5 - Any known info?

Well, we say that, but at the end of the day from Steinberg’s perspective it is what we do that counts. The last time a .5 came out I’d had enough and skipped updating. That was due to the current state of version 6.x and the newer version not having enough new features I could count on to make it worth while. Then I got version 7 instead because of VCAs, literally mostly because of that, and maybe you know how that went.

So the real question is how do users react to this? If people just keep paying then SB keeps doing what its doing. It’s that simple.

There was a thread that was pretty telling in the Cubase section. The gist of it was basically “fix bugs first, introduce new features later”. Most users seemed to agree, which they have done for years and years. Steinberg’s response was to poll the users… For the most wanted new features! The comment was “Oh, well, of course we care about bugs, that goes without saying”. It’s like they didn’t really understand what was said or coldly calculated that users would get distracted by shiny new features as they always are.

I’m skeptic regarding subscriptions. If you look at Avid’s userbase the users have been by and large incredibly unhappy about it. Part of it was the messy way things were communicated and structured, but the other part has been that people paid upfront for new features and haven’t seen much at all as a result.

In Avid’s case, if I remember correctly, accounting issues pretty much forced them to change the way they charge for support and updates/upgrades, and of course it also yielded a different cash flow. But if you ignore those two issues, legal/accounting - because Steinberg is in Germany, and cash flow - because Steinberg isn’t suffering like Avid is/was, I don’t really see a reason why we can’t have our cake and eat it too. There’s simply no apparent reason for not prioritizing fixing bugs quickly and adding features later, other than increasing profit.

I think this is very relative to the perspective you view it from though. To me, as an engineer in the US where PT is everywhere in post, Nuendo + Windows + home assembled computer is dirt-cheap. So, relative to the competition’s DAW it’s not a big deal.

BUT, almost all work I did last year was on PT, not Nuendo, and that makes it a very different proposition. Why would I want to pay in advance for the DAW that produces the least income? From that standpoint, and as you point out, in comparison to other software like Resolve, it is indeed “expensive”, or at least not as appealing. Then again, if it’s a matter of just dividing your average upgrade cost over time and making that a subscription it’ll likely feel cheap again… i.e. a major version costs the average user $240 (just to make it simple) every two years = $10/month. From SB’s perspective one also has to wonder if it’s worth it though, in terms of restructuring accounting etc to accomodate for it.

That is indeed pretty incredible. We have to remember though that they have an entire eco-system and make their money off of hardware sales. In that sense it’s akin to Logic/Apple.

VFX software especially makes me believe the competition among DAWs could indeed get stiffer, forcing dev teams to try a little harder.

And one thing to remember is that while post engineers and facilities won’t switch any time soon, a lot of users might choose Reaper over Cubase as they switch from PT. And since Cubase clearly is a cash-cow for Steinberg I’d take that very seriously, particularly that pretty much every user I’ve seen or heard commenting on support specifically have been incredibly happy with it.

I must say this.

Its 3 years now since I move almost full time to Nuendo from PT. I want a platform that I could work with scoring and post audio editing instead of PT and Cubase.
Now days I admit it was a mistake. Avid are pain in the ass but PT was very easy to use, I could work everywhere, it surely sounds way better(dont know why, but thats the way it is).
Instead of working with cubase I paid the extra for Nuendo. It came clear to me very soon that to be able to work like in cubase I need to pay for NEK. I will need to pay not only for the updates but for the NEK updates.
I will see Cubase users using any new features a whole year before I can try something cause NEK customers CANT use cubase.

I dont say Neundo is bad product, Its great. but it became a “Catholic” wedding.
I need to pay more and get the least.

And for the money - If I cant get all the cubase features, I want the cubase users to have the own “NEK”…paying extra for timecode ruler, video engine bla bla bla.

i understand your sentiment regarding the wait on nuendo to port over the cubase features. but from the pov of developing a ‘professional daw for post’, it does make sense some buffer time is given to iron out the quirks before the ‘adult’ version acquires them. in an ideal world, sw would be free of bugs, but it never is. in less-than-ideal world, the bugs would be ironed out within that year. it is quite unfortunate that in reality, the bugs and worfklow downgrades from cubase just seem to carry over to nuendo (on a related note, i am curious to see if the new cumbersome locator system in the new cubase will debilitate nuendo in its upcoming version).

I think the argument that was made time and again that made sense was that a Nuendo+NEK owner should receive a combo license instead. So rather than having only a Nuendo or Nuendo+NEK license, one would have a Nuendo OR Nuendo/NEK/CubasePro licence. With the latter license one could then access the new features in Cubase before they find their way to Nuendo, yet without sacrificing profit for Steinberg since it’s just one license. In other words it sits on the dongle and one can run either one or the other, rather than having two separate licenses. That to me makes a ton of sense IF the argument is that Nuendo+NEK includes all Cubase features.

Agreed.

+1 for combo license. I know you can just download a cubase 8.5 trial license but I think it would show some respect to us that pay the higher fees for Nuendo.

Nuendo as a nieche market product is very reasonably priced.

I’m happy to throw money at Steinberg for their outstanding work for every .5 update as long as the features keep coming and the platform is actively being developed. 7 is the best Nuendo ever.

i’m not quite on the same page. Cubase is a pro music tool. As far as I’ve seen in videos, even Hans Zimmer uses it. And he has to have a rock solid production workflow for his enterprise, too, I guess :wink: Cubase is not the childish playground but has to perform similarly solid in music and scoring for film situations without a hickup. And so we Nuendo users expect the same. Be on a stable edge of technology to do our best work using the best tools given the best workflow standards currently available in the industry. Every feature that saves us time and creates better quality is worth money. INCLUDING fixing bugs that hinder productivity and destroy work or make it more difficult to achieve a goal. Every bug can be a huge time drain when you try to pin down the problem and working around it.

From Nuendo I expect to be on the same technical level. I mean, the tools Cubase and Nuendo are deliberately held similar. It’s the same channel strip, the same plugin architecture, timeline and audio engines and so on. They don’t have to maintain 2 completely separate products. There obviously is a crossover in code.

Yes, every product has bugs and I accept that. But it goes a long way how the company deals with them. Addressing and fixing them is one way, in my opinion good way of doing things to your paying customers. Ignoring them and making people really angry is another way. I’m sure DaVinci Resolve has it’s share of annoying bugs as well, and I don’t know how they deal with it, I’m not a Resolve user. I think the grass is always greener on the other side. But it nevertheless is impresive what Blackmagic is able to put in there and it really seems as if competition helps here. Yes, they have a big ecosystem like Apple with lots of hardware, but Steinberg also has some hardware and makes good money on Cubase I’d think? So developing Nuendo is a must or they should stop it. But making their users pay for an upgrade with some new features while leaving people with big bugs out in the cold, only fixing those bugs in the paid upgrade, that’s really no the way to go.

I mean, I’ve never heard of Resolve a few years ago. There’s always time to enter a market for a new player and doing something nobody else did AND stick out. Bitwig Studio was a recent example in the music world. You’d think there are enough music DAWs out there, but there’s still rooms for great concepts and new ideas that inspire us to do a greater job. I’m stunned at what comes out of all the software companies. The node based effect thingy in Studio One 3 that looks like a modernized Native Instruments Kore for example. Gorgeous! Or the abolity for Melodyne to access the complete track’s timeline not what’s right under the playhead (called Audio Random Access, or ARA). VocalSync tech in Sonar. That stuff’s innovative, when you think you’ve seen everything in music DAWs. In the realm of post production tools there’s just not that much around. I actually like Studio One, but it’s focused on music. No surround or OMF/AAF is a killer. Logic’s great too, but no batch processing of events and markers and really bad at OMF and AAF. None of those has ADR or EDL / reconforming capabilities. Nuendo has some really great things and ideas and is mostly really solid for me. But there’d be time for a competitor to take their music DAW, add some great post production features and have a completely new market in front of themselves.

More competition would really work wonders I think. Currently it’s very boring on this market. I know many people just want nothing to change so they can productively work on their clients projects. And that’s OK. These people don’t have to upgrade right away and can wait until the dust settles. But only adding small, safe features and one or two workflow improvements doesn’t bring the industry forward and doesn’t allow for big leaps of inspiration and new ways of thinking. Either Steinberg gets back in the game strong or I hope a competitor will pick up the ball. Apparently, judging from PT HD and Nuendo’s price, there’s a lot one can demand for a good post production suite, in comparison with the crashed music DAW prices. I mean, you get some of the best tools for about $250 today. Or are post production features so boring and annoying with old tech and EDLs that nobody wants to do them? Is it not hip enough? Is it just cooler adding the 10th iteration of a beat machine into a music DAW for the music makers to lay down some beats? Adding new beat and hip hop sample packs? Is that the new thing?

I for one am highly interested in workflow improvements and where this industry could develop towards. Just think about other markets. Avid is just making the first steps with their cloud sharing platform. But in film cutting, color grading, rendering, 3D and such spaces, collaboration is long there! People cut on separate scenes or even in the same timeline of a movie together. They work on shots together and share image elements in a project. Same in 3D scenes, where people at the same time are adding models, textures, lights. I’m part of a game dev team and we’re working all in the same tool on the same game in the same scene on the same items. It’s crazy collaborative! I think Nuendo has some collaborative features if I’m not mistaken. Other great feelings arise when you can open an old project file and import some channel strips from it… Bitwig announced some features in that direction, don’t know if they arrived. I would just love see Steinberg skate to where the puck is GOING TO BE in the industry. Not where the puck passed by a few years ago.

I agree. As I said before. Everything that helps me save time is worth some money. But when it’s hard to click on things, fonts are small and hard to read, click targets are tiny and hidden by mouse-over gestures, it hinders productivity and costs time. Interface design, usability and workflow improvements are a BIG part of productivity and saving time. A lot more could be invested in that area. Not only by Steinberg. I also think PT is a stone age product. When you’re looking at the modern video production software, where many people have to collaborate together on a huge project, sharing project files, working on them collaboratively and simultaneously, roundtripping to other products and back. This to me feels adapted to our modern technology, networking and internet age. This industry really had to bend backwards to making that happen and innovate. Whereas my personal opinion is that in sound production, everything is about yet another distortion plugin, yet another virtual modular synth and beats sample pack, but the overall DAW tool itself that gets the work done, is stuck in time. There are SO many things one could do… Are the people working with the tools so used to them that they cannot think outside the box? Does the status quo not hurt enough to make a leap and change how things are done? Or is there just not big enough of a market to make such changes? However, making the GUI dark is not enough.

If you look at the last few Logic updates, I think Logic 9 it was, most “new” things was yet another cabinet emulator, switch mics and cabinets and distortion levels. New synths. New loops. It’s easy adding plugins and some content. But what about the main tool? Where was the innovation there? However, I like how Apple with the last few Logic Pro X updates and bug fix releases in the past months modernized their old plugins (optimized GUI, larger click targets, simpler, practical design, this saves time and it’s easier to understand what plugins do), how they added new editor and export features. The last couple of releases were very nice. And this while Logic is way down on Apple’s priority list. They don’t have a lot of resources for development and progress feels slow. But Steinberg’s flagship products are their software live Cubase, Nudeno, Wavelab. They’re living off it, this is their main source of income. These products should shine and show the way. Yet progress in Nuendo feels glacial. There are other companies that have more forward drive like PreSonus and even Cakewalk. Alas, none of them cares about sound post production or game sound.

And that’s exactly the reason why we get stuff like broken VCAs capable of boosting levels +12dB without the user asking for it.

I agree that updates/fixes comes to seldom.

That said I think we’ll get an update to Nuendo quite soon.

I actually believe that fixing bugs will bring in the money. It will create many happy users which will result in many more posts on this forum from satisfied customers. This in turn will help convince anyone thinking of getting into Nuendo to take the leap. That’s got to be better than a bunch of posts complaining about things not working as advertised.

I agree with the comments about the GUI. PG has listened to the users comments about Wavélab 7 and 8 and completely scrapped the design for a new one in WL 9 - Very popular it is too. The Nuendo designers should think about doing the same.

i heard the gui aspect of cubendo is a one-man show as well. if that is the case, it may be as easy as letting that person go or providing them a helping hand from someone in the know.

I just looked at some Wavelab 9 windows including the video about Friedemann Tischmeyer. He wasn’t happy with Wavelab 7 and 8 either :wink: And I have to say, judging from the video, they really did a complete overhaul and it looks soooo much better! This is really an intelligent GUI. It looks easy on the eyes, it has color coded sections so the eye can quickly find what you’re looking for in a longer list, the GUI takes away options that don’t apply for the window you’re in, the tab concept looks like it would work well. I’ve played with Wavelab 8 two years ago and it was horrible. This looks like a great way forward.

It would be great if Steinberg took the time to really re-think Nuendo’s interface. It feels so crammed together and function after function added to create a mess of UI paradigms. Well, only time will tell. But if this thread is any indication, people are ready for a change.

Unbelievable. For that, it’s astounding what this one person has to juggle. But it’s very sad that not more weight is given to this CRITICAL area. What good are the best plugins and functions if nobody can find them, use them, if they create constant frustration. Just watch the video of Friedemann Tischmeyer on the Wavelab 9 product page (WaveLab: Audio Mastering Software | Steinberg). He clearly says: there were too many icons, everything was a mess. And then he says when you do a task hundred times a day, an improvement in the workflow goes a long way. He’s so right. Currently I feel like Nuendo has great functionality but it’s obstructed by roadblocks at every corner. Making it difficult to use those functions fluently.

I’m sure one could save at least one to two clicks for many processing steps. Saving two clicks is a big deal if you do this hundred times a day.

you’ve pretty much nailed it-- the added functionalities are implemented in a completely non-systemic way, and with their introduction often comes an introduction of a completely new GUI element, unrelated to the existing GUI, and incongruent in its functionality to the rest of the program – a prime example is the new pop up menu in C8.5 that appears automatically as the mouse cursor hovers over the edge of the screen. or little details, like the ‘e’ icon for ‘channel settings’ being completely different in the project window, and in the mixconsole.

especially to new users this is very confusing and unprofessional looking. it’s these things that had become second nature to you, that start becoming evident as you try to explain the software to a newcomer.

it’s kind of like teaching your language to someone and realizing how full of exceptions and illogical rules it is, because of the nature of languages being living organisms developing haphazardly throughout history.

/

except this is software, which can and should be made logical.

Nonsense.

This goes back to the very early versions of which Dave was for the most part responsable for the GUI.
And back then, he was nothing short of a hero.
Actually, to me he still is.

Fredo

then i shall plus-one. the older nuendo gui’s are still elegant to this day, for this reason i sometimes work with N4 as it’s easier on the eyes, when i don’t require any new functionalities. (the fact events’ edges change colour in realtime as you hover over them alone – which had not been the case in older versions – is a major visual distraction that i’ve wished could be turned off since its introduction.)

GUI IS a language. It communicates with the user and shows where he can find the functionality. And yes, I’ve seen the “new cool feature” they show in the “Accessibility and workflow 1” video (https://youtu.be/D2pE5-zM52c?t=21). This is HORRIBLE! I cannot understand how anybody thought this was a good idea: There’s no button that communicates you can click something to change windows layout. You have to know where it is. Very bad for discoverability. The area where you can click seems super small, only a few pixels so you have to precisely position your mouse there. How can this be “accessible”? Did anybody complain about the window layout button? Is this what they call “improving accessibility and workflow”? I doubt this particular feature helps any workflow at all.

Here you have to click, there you have to hover your mouse over a 2 pixel small area, in some other instance you have to know where to move your mouse to and then click. This sounds like: We have no idea where to put this new feature, let’s make the user hover somewhere and then yet another menu pops up where we can cram 5 new things into. This feature alone screams UI redesign to me.

Also think about the people with a multi-monitor setup that have screens on the left, the right, and maybe above as well. You cannot just throw your mouse to the edge of the monitor. If you do that, you land on the adjecent monitor. You really have to carefully position your mouse on the edge so you don’t slip to the next monitor. This takes a lot more time than just going up to the button and enable the panes with a click on the checkbox.

in practical use, this is actually worse, and the opposite case: the menu gets triggered randomly when performing other tasks, whilst obstructing the user’s view and workflow.