Ozone 5 plugin incompatibility

Here is a serious incompatibility between Ozone 5 Adv and Wavelab 8 discovered by me few month ago. I wrote to Izotope support about it. Here is my mail correspondence with them on the subject. (start on the bottom and newest on top). Since there is Wavelab 8.5 coming out and they suggest that the reason for mis-compatibility may be on WL side - I’m pointing this out. I also send pictures of spectrum and Ozone preset I’m talking about in correspondence.

Thanks in advance

Vic

Everything is explained below. Please go throughout it:

“”"

Hello Wiktor,

After further investigation, it appears that this issue may occur with other plug-ins as well in this audio host application.

Can you try using an alternate manufacturer’s reverb plug-in to see if this issue continues to occur? If it does on your side, then this may indicate a difference in playback and rendering by Wavelab directly. In that case, you may want to contact Steinberg Support for further information.

Please let me know if you have any further questions.

Sincerely,
TJ

iZotope, Inc.
http://www.izotope.com/

On Mon, 10 Mar 2014, support@izotope.com wrote:

Hello Wiktor,

While I have not heard of any updates on this, I will check with our developers directly and get back to you as soon as possible with further information.

Please let me know if you have any further questions in the mean-time.

Sincerely,
TJ

iZotope, Inc.
http://www.izotope.com/

On Sun, 09 Mar 2014, biliana@zoho.com wrote:

Hello TJ

Any news on this issues? What developers say? Current status makes Ozone unusable within Wavelab. It complicates work a lot.

Sincerely,

Wiktor Korczakowski

http://koras-studio.wix.com/mastering

-----Original Message-----
From: iZotope Support
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2014 8:06 PM
To: biliana@zoho.com
Subject: Re: Ozone 5 advanced bug

Hello Wiktor,

Thanks for your patience.

I was able to recreate this issue on our side here, and noted that the recorded playback and the rendered file with the same settings may provide different results within Wavelab 8.0.3.

I will forward this to our developers for their consideration and further investigation. That being said, I am unaware of any updates or patches to Ozone 5 planned in the immediate future.

Please let me know if you have any further questions.

Sincerely,
TJ

iZotope, Inc.
http://www.izotope.com/

On Wed, 04 Dec 2013, biliana@zoho.com wrote:

Thanks - I’ll look forward for it

Wiktor Korczakowski

http://koras-studio.wix.com/mastering

-----Original Message-----
From: iZotope Support
Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:57 PM
To: biliana@zoho.com
Subject: Re: Ozone 5 advanced bug

Hello Wiktor,

Thanks for this information.

I will need to spend some additional time with this information, and I will try and obtain this specific version of Wavelab for further testing.

I will let you know the results of my continued investigation as soon as possible.

Please let me know if you have any further questions in the mean-time.

Sincerely,
TJ

iZotope, Inc.
http://www.izotope.com/

On Wed, 27 Nov 2013, biliana@zoho.com wrote:

Hello TJ

I’m sending you 6 screenshots taken by schirmfoto utility by Abelsoft:

unprocessed 24bit - original wave
VST2 rec w WL - original wave passed thru Ozone 5 advanced VST2, preset “pno” also included in attachments (same I sent previously) recorded internally in Wavelab 8,0,3 (build 698) 64 bit – what is playing is recorded into separate file VST2 rend w WL - original wave passed thru Ozone 5 advanced VST2, preset “pno” rendered in Wavelab
VST3 rec w WL - original wave passed thru Ozone 5 advanced VST3, preset “pno”, recorded internally in Wavelab
VST3 rend w WL - original wave passed thru Ozone 5 advanced VST3, preset “pno”, rendered in Wavelab
VST2 rend w RX3 - original wave passed thru Ozone 5 advanced VST3,
preset “pno”, rendered in RX3 advanced

No other plugins were used.

Please compare the images presenting spectrograms of all this waves. There is no major difference between VST2 and VST3 versions of Ozone but between “rendered” and “recorded” – there is.

In case of “rendered” versions in Wavelab you can observe much more melted image in 100-700 Hz area and even lack of “dry”, fundamental notes like in 24-26 sec close to 300 Hz compared to “recorded” in Wavelab.(which is our WY-H-IWYG goal)

I’ve also processed original wave by Ozone w/ ”pno” preset on the RX3 platform. This produces sonically (and visually) similar wave to Wavelab “recorded” versions and seems to be OK.

This brings us to the point that there must be some sort of incompatibility between Ozone5 and Wavelab 8. This should not happen in “pro” software.

It is not happening with other plugins used with Wavelab as far as I experienced.

Possibly my experiments will help you do something about it. Ozone is a great software and is worthy of it.

What do you think???

Sincerely

Wiktor Korczakowski

http://koras-studio.wix.com/mastering

-----Original Message-----
From: iZotope Support
Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2013 12:12 AM
To: biliana@zoho.com
Subject: Re: Ozone 5 advanced bug

Hello,

My investigation included a few other hosts including Reaper and FL Studio, with the provided settings running during playback. I was unable to notice similar results to the ones you have provided.

Please let me know if the VST 2 version also behaves in this manner on your side. Also, are you running any other plug-ins in the signal path in this scenario?

Please let me know if you have any further questions.

Sincerely,
TJ

iZotope, Inc.
http://www.izotope.com/

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013, biliana@zoho.com wrote:

Hello

What DAW did you use to render file? May the reason lays in DAW soft - in my case Wavelab - the latest rev.
I’ll play with VST2 and let you know about results.
There is also an issue with Inside soft. used in Wavelab. It doesn’t scale up correctly by the right low corner handle dragging, which seems to be placed there for this particular reason.

Sincerely,

Wiktor Korczakowski

http://koras-studio.wix.com/mastering

-----Original Message-----
From: iZotope Support
Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 1:09 AM
To: biliana@zoho.com
Subject: Re: Ozone 5 advanced bug

Hello Wiktor,

In my testing here, the preset appears to sound much different from the resulting files, both the intended and not intended version.

Can you try using the VST 2 version to see if this also recreates this issue? To my knowledge there is not much benefit to the VST 3 version of Ozone 5 over the VST 2 version, and if the VST 3 version has an issue, you may want to try using the VST 2 version to see if this is consistent across both versions, or only in one over the other.

Please let me know if you have any further questions or if the problem persists.

Sincerely,
TJ

iZotope, Inc.
http://www.izotope.com/

On Thu, 21 Nov 2013, biliana@zoho.com wrote:

Hello

I sent you already preset which I observed this phenomenon on. I include it in this mail also.
I’ll check its behavior with VST2 latter on.
Anyhow it should not matter which version of plug I’m using as a end-user, especially - VST3 is newer technology hence suppose to be more advanced. Isn’t it?

My best

Wiktor Korczakowski

http://koras-studio.wix.com/mastering

-----Original Message-----
From: iZotope Support
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2013 1:02 AM
To: biliana@zoho.com
Subject: Re: Ozone 5 advanced bug

Hello Wiktor,

Thanks for this information!

I can indeed see a slight difference in release/decay characteristics in the examples that you provided. What cutoff settings do you have set for the Reverb module? Would you be willing to provide an Ozone 5 preset for the settings you are using? I can then attempt to recreate this on my side here.

Once we are able to recreate this on our side here, we can then better understand what may be occurring in this type of scenario.

Also, you mentioned that this occurs in VST 3 versions. Does this also occur in the VST 2 version? If not, you may want to simply use the VST 2 version instead.

Please let me know if you have any further questions.

Sincerely,
TJ

iZotope, Inc.
http://www.izotope.com/

On Thu, 14 Nov 2013, biliana@zoho.com wrote:

recorded in line internally in wavelab 16bit

-----Original Message-----
From: iZotope Support
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 12:22 AM
To: biliana@zoho.com
Subject: Re: Ozone 5 advanced bug

Hello,

Thank you for contacting us.

Would you be willing to provide a demonstration audio file that shows this issue consistently on your setup? Also, if you are able to record the audio playback of what it should sound like in an additional audio file, this can help me better understand the issue that you are experiencing.

Does this issue occur consistently on your setup?

Does this occur with the VST 2 or VST 3 versions in Wavelab?

Can you please also provide a preset of the settings that you are using to process this example?

Please let me know if you have any further questions.

Sincerely,
TJ

iZotope, Inc.
http://www.izotope.com/

On Thu, 07 Nov 2013, biliana@zoho.com wrote:

IP: 89.64.250.76

It’s about Ozone 5 advanced (rev. 5,04).

It should be a WY-H-IWIG program, I believe, but when I render (Wavelab 8,03 64bit) particular setup containing REV module (Theater algorithm) I get different sound from what I hear using it as In-line plugin. It looks as a problem lays somewhere around Cutoff filters.

Is it a bug?

Sincerely

Wiktor Korczakowski

http://koras-studio.wix.com/mastering


Ozone 5 advanced bug

Q) *What do you need help with?
A) Product crash or bug

Q) *iZotope product:
A) Ozone 5 Advanced

Q) *Operating System:
A) Windows 7 64-bit

Q) *Host Application:
A) Steinberg Wavelab

Q) Host Version Number:
A) 8,03

Q) *Plug-in format:
A) VST

Q) *Processor type:
A) PC Intel

Wiktor Korczakowski

http://koras-studio.wix.com/mastering
[/color]
pix.zip (1.65 MB)

I’m trying to follow the e-mail thread, but is this an issue with just the reverb section in Ozone 5?

the recorded playback and the rendered file with the same settings may provide different results within Wavelab 8.0.3.

I see no summary of the problem (that would help), but I retain the above quote.
This would happen if the plugin does not copy all the parameters used during playback, to the internal plugin presets. Because WaveLab rendering happens in the background (from Master Section or from the batch processors), some new plugin instances are used to render to file (the need is obvious if multiples files are rendered in the same time). This means all parameters need to be saved/restored.

Please examine attached pix of spectrum according to description stated below. This is single use of Ozone 5 Adv. on single wave - just a pure render function compared to internally recorded audio file put throughout previously stored preset in Ozone. Simple situation to keep things clear.
I believe - this should not happen. Also I have no idea about misbehaving of other components of Ozone plug. This is clear.

Description of attached pictures:

“”"

I’m sending you 6 screenshots taken by schirmfoto utility by Abelsoft:

unprocessed 24bit - original wave
VST2 rec w WL - original wave passed thru Ozone 5 advanced VST2, preset “pno” also included in attachments (same I sent previously) recorded internally in Wavelab 8,0,3 (build 698) 64 bit – what is playing is recorded into separate file VST2 rend w WL - original wave passed thru Ozone 5 advanced VST2, preset “pno” rendered in Wavelab
VST3 rec w WL - original wave passed thru Ozone 5 advanced VST3, preset “pno”, recorded internally in Wavelab
VST3 rend w WL - original wave passed thru Ozone 5 advanced VST3, preset “pno”, rendered in Wavelab
VST2 rend w RX3 - original wave passed thru Ozone 5 advanced VST3,
preset “pno”, rendered in RX3 advanced

No other plugins were used.

Please compare the images presenting spectrograms of all this waves. There is no major difference between VST2 and VST3 versions of Ozone but between “rendered” and “recorded” – there is.

In case of “rendered” versions in Wavelab you can observe much more melted image in 100-700 Hz area and even lack of “dry”, fundamental notes like in 24-26 sec close to 300 Hz compared to “recorded” in Wavelab.(which is our WY-H-IWYG goal)

I’ve also processed original wave by Ozone w/ ”pno” preset on the RX3 platform. This produces sonically (and visually) similar wave to Wavelab “recorded” versions and seems to be OK.

This brings us to the point that there must be some sort of incompatibility between Ozone5 and Wavelab 8. This should not happen in “pro” software.

It is not happening with other plugins used with Wavelab as far as I experienced.

See attachements:

Sincerely … Vic
pix.zip (1.65 MB)

To your quote:

“the recorded playback and the rendered file with the same settings may provide different results within Wavelab 8.0.3.”

How can you adjust parameters of any processor if you can’t hear what they are actually doing to the sound? This should be WY-H-IWYG situation as stated in case of Wavelab and Ozone literature.

…Vic

This has to do with how Wavelab technically works. At rendering, all plugins and their settings are copied to the ‘rendering stream’ - so to speak. So if Ozone has settings outside of the standard that cannot be copied by Wavelab, there will be a difference in the rendered file against the real time audio.

Yeah - that is what I’m talking about - NO compatibility. And this should be worked out for future release of software revision in case it is going to remain “pro”.

You can’t relay on processor of any kind which gives you different aural picture than it actually produces at the “rendering” end - that’s WY-H-IWYG philosophy.

Sincerely

Vic

Exactly. The point is; who’s not “pro”? Wavelab for working this way, or Ozone for not adhering to a very clear VST standard? I take it you also took your concerns to the Ozone forums?

I think you don’t get the point… please read me again carefully…
WaveLab is able to process multiple files in the same time, using multi core technology, and I believe this is what we call “pro” today. But for this, obviously, several independent instances of the plugin are necessary. This is why each plugin must carry the proper settings with each audio stream. If a plugin has a mistake that prevents it to copy its parameters properly from one plugin instance to the other, WaveLab can’t help it. And the plugin manufacturer must be told about the problem.

Firs of all - I’m not offending anyone. Sorry if it feels like that. That’ not my point. My point is helping things out.
Both softwares are fantastic and I really appreciate your work - both Wavelab and Izotope teams.
My first steps were to Ozone team in November 2013 I believe - read my full correspondence with them in my first entry.

Now to the point.
Ozone is not a freestanding soft but a plugin containing several modules though. In this case I used one instance of Ozone 5 Adv. on one wave and I made several tests - illustrated on the attached pix. Adjusting the plugin control handles gives sonically proper results but rendered wave sounded different. That made me write to Ozone support and now to you - after they stated that problem may be on WL side.
I’m not a programmer, neither VST spec. wizard. I’m end-user mastering engineer.

I did not notice described problems before, using earlier releases of both soft’s WL 7/ Ozone 4.

Sincerely … Vic

I use Ozone on nearly everything in Wavelab so this is concerning to me.

Is this something specific to the reverb section? I use Ozone in a pretty subtle way usually so detecting issues with settings not being right could be tough, not as obvious as a reverb.

Are you saying that certain settings in certain modules aren’t being stored or recalled in Ozone?

Your e-mail chain is not so easy to follow in my opinion.

You should tell Izotope what I described in my previous message. I think this should talk to them, at least if this reaches their developer.

Me too - Ozone on everything. I discovered this phenomenon after accidental high slider position set in the mix section of rev module. It sounded fine so I rendered wave. But “rendered” wave was unclear, rather sounded dull. So Ive checked the settings. Nothing helped. Then after contacting Izotope’s guy I made several tests and send them the screen shot-pix of the results. Everything is described above. Finally Ozone developers suggested possible WL fault.
I use Ozone in subtle way too. I discovered this by accident. Have no idea about other modules - are they trustworthy or not - I did not push it to the limits ever? Ozone usually makes miracles in small amount.

As for e-mail chain - try to read it from the bottom were the beginning is.

…Vic

To PG:

The last post from Izotope support is as follows:
“”"
Hello Wiktor,

Sorry for any potential confusion.

Please note that using an alternate reverb was meant to be a test to see how this separate plug-in behavior occurs within Wavelab.

I have been investigating this with one of our Quality Assurance Engineers here, and we saw similar behaviors when using a stock reverb within Wavelab. As such, I would not expect this behavior to be different in other plug-ins as well.

Please do note that I am unsure if this is a known issue with Wavelab, or if this is simply the result of a potential setting within the host application. In some cases, some host applications will offer a low quality preview mode for higher performance playback, and higher quality rendering mode. You may want to check the Wavelab documentation to see if this is possibly what is causing the difference between playback and rendering.

Additionally, you may want to contact Steinberg Customer Support for further information on this difference in behavior.
“”"

I’m going to send to Ozone your explanation - but I think i would make better results if you contact each other in strait manner - it would not produce “Chinese whispers” effect at least.

And after I sent to Izotope above info I received:

“”"
Hello Wiktor,

Thanks for letting me know.

While I will forward this information to our Quality Assurance Department directly for their further consideration, please feel free to encourage anyone from Steinberg / Wavelab to contact us directly here at support@izotope.com, or through our developer e-mail channel. To my knowledge, they should have our contact information already on file.

Please let me know if you have any further questions.

Sincerely,
TJ

iZotope, Inc.
http://www.izotope.com/

“”"

The rest is in your hand. I hope my experiments will help to make better music, better mastering and after all better world in this strange nowadays.

Sincerely …Vic

Maybe that’s the crux?

It’s stuff like this that makes me paranoid that all my Ozone settings are not being included in rendering. I never use the reverb but often use the EQ (stereo and m/s), Dynamics (stereo and/ms) and Maximizer modules. I love the sound of Ozone but it seems that WL and Ozone has had their share of issues over the last year or two.

I’m tempted to switch to something like Voxengo Elephant or something for final limiter in Wavelab.

I don’t care whose fault it is so much, but if it’s not working properly I need to know if I should avoid using it until the issue can be resolved on either end.

OK, I reversed the order of the emails and I get the picture… And I read this as Oz people say it is a problem in WL8, correct?

If there is ever a resolve to this, please post it here.

Yes, I wish I had the time and an easy way to test what’s going on. At first I was hoping this issue was at least specific to the reverb module since I personally never use that one. I do have a lot of subtle settings going on for most projects and it’d be very hard to discern if just one of them wasn’t occurring on the rendered file, or DDP.

One other thought for the original poster, are you in 32-bit or 64-bit mode? I ask because I just today discovered that Wavelab seems to default to 32-bit mode upon installation. I remember unchecking this box back when I migrated to 64-bit as plugins became compatible, but didn’t think to look at the 32-bit box setting when I installed 8.0.3 on a new machine. I was running You’d think at this point, Wavelab would default to open at 64-bit. For about a month now until today, I was running Wavelab in 32-bit. I’m thinking I’ll see a bit of performance increase tomorrow when I get back to work.

I work on 64 bit.