Repeat bar line and time signature

[Kenny_Choy]

When I’m creating a repeat bar line and at the same time changing the time signature, Dorico comes up with the time signature showing before and outside the repeat bar line.

Does anyone know how can I get around to have with the time signature after and inside the repeat bar line instead?

[Derrek]

IIRC you cannot currently reposition the time signature change before a repeat.

[kleinesteentjes]

Above topic is two years old, however I still encounter this problem if I combine a time signature change and a repeat bar (see images).


Any solutions yet? Thanks!

[Derrek]

I’m not sure Dorico considers this a situation that needs to be solved since it relates to common current practice according to some authorities. If they have reconsidered for future change, I’m sure they will let that be known at the proper time. So far, I am not aware that they have.

https://forums.steinberg.net/t/repeat-barlines-and-meter-change/670370

[kleinesteentjes]

@Derrek - Thanks for your reply!
I just wonder to what ‘authorities’ Dorico might relate? I literally never came across a notation with a single barline first, then time signature and after that the repeat barline.

[MarcLarcher]

Well, if you read the thread Derrek talks about, Daniel Spreadbury gives all the details (Behind Bars, pp 233-235)
If you’re not familiar with Elaine Gould’s work, maybe it’s a good time
I own a hard copy, but I also bought it as an ebook on Amazon, cheaper and portable !

[FredGUnn]

@kleinesteentjes

I just wonder to what ‘authorities’ Dorico might relate?

While I too have seen it done otherwise, this was the “correct” convention even in the handcopying days. Here’s the relevant passage from the Ken Williams book:

[MarcLarcher]

[pianoleo]

And Ted Ross. Ross doesn’t appear to have any mid-system examples but there are several other examples at the starts of systems, all of which put the time signature before the repeat.

[FredGUnn]

Gardner Read too …

[MarcLarcher]

There’s never been so many pictures added to a thread from so many different sources! I guess we appreciate this Discourse feature

[kleinesteentjes]

Ok guys, I’m convinced! …performed the wrong scores, obviously.

[FredGUnn]

Last one - Boosey & Hawkes:

[pcantrell]

Is it gauche to bump a semi-old thread with new information? I just ran into this myself — and no, there is not in fact consensus on it, not even among reputable publishers.

Here are three editions of the Beethoven 111 (2nd movement, start of the 2nd variation):

The three editions here, left to right, are:

1. Schenker (Universal-Edition, 1923)
2. Wallner (Henle, 1980)
3. Cooper (ABRSM, 2007)

Two of the three contradict Dorico’s enforced convention (including the Henle, which is by far the best-engraved of the three). Only the Cooper, which is the only computer-engraved one, puts the time signature before the repeat bar.

The consensus is thus not as clear as the references above would have it. I would vote in favor of creating an engraving option to control this.

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Regardless of the preferability of one convention vs. the other, the one Dorico enforces poses two particular problems in my case.

First, Dorico does not leave adequate space between the time signature and the repeat barline when the time signature denominator has two digits:

…and it seems neither note spacing nor graphical editing nor the properties panel allows me to adjust that spacing. (I can move the time signature left and right, but can’t create more space for it.) Is there a way to fix this that I’m missing?

Second, in my piece, that repeated section ends in a different time signature:

• • •

…and placing the 9/16 outside of the barline wrongly implies to my eye that after the repeat, the music should continue in 8/16. (The 9/16 is not part of what’s repeated, right? So why should it apply on the repeat? If I alter the value of “time signature” outside the loop, then the change doesn’t apply inside the loop….)

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Addendum, in case it helps anyone else:

I achieved what I wanted:

Here’s how:

1. Create an empty, unmetered 1-beat measure signature before the repeat barline.
2. If necessary, hide the time signature for that 1-beat measure in the properties panel.
3. If necessary, hide the rests in that 1-beat measure.
4. Now remove the repeat barline from the measure with the time signature change, and add it instead to the empty measure. The result should look like this: repeat barline, normal barline, time signature.
5. Use note spacing to tuck the normal barline inside the thick part of the repeat barline, effectively hiding it. (Adjust both the upper and lower adjustment handles that appear above the barline to do this.)
6. The time signature is now smashed on top of the repeat dots. In the properties panel, adjust the time signature’s x position.
7. Adjust note spacing as necessary.

[Mark_Johnson]

@pcantrell

in my piece, that repeated section ends in a different time signature

This is the crux of the matter. Logically the time sig should go outside the repeat bar unless it is an actual change when you repeat back. Thanks for the workaround method.