I had a hunch this was the source you were referring to. Yes I know about that claim. In actual fact he did not say that Gadaffi had ordered the bombing. What he actually said ( and I saw his interview ) was that IF Megrahi had carried out the bombing then Gadaffi would have known about it. In typical fashion the Western MSM in some places spun it as Gadaffi ordered the bombing. So no there’s no admission from any Libyans admitting complicity in the Lockerbie bombing.
Agreed. I was speaking about ridiculous comments in general. Nothing John said was out of line, ridiculous, or even wrong, for that matter
I read a report ABOUT the interview, which possibly “spun” it as an admission.
Still, no love for Qadaffi here
Agreed here as well. I stand by my comments regarding songs for , but as said I respect John’s project. I wish him well with it.
As many will know I am something of a Lounge veteran when it comes to online collaborations and relief efforts so I’d like to share my thoughts if I may.
I have been involved quite extensively in the past with cubase.net Lounge ‘relief efforts’. There was the SE Asian tsunami back in 2004/05 where I hosted, facilitated and co-wrote “Tsunami Awakening” - two + weeks of round the clock effort which was particularly challenging given I am living in an opposing time zone to most.
http://www.nzmusician.co.nz/index.php/ps_pagename/newsitem/pi_newsitemid/644
More recently there was of course the Haiti relief projects which I also actively participated in. Both these collaborative musical efforts were well-intentioned, with the hope that they would raise money that would then be passed onto appropriate relief-aid agencies. They both failed in that regard, failed relative to the money that could have been raised by simply dipping into our respective wallets. I now believe no such effort can succeed in raising funds unless the people involved have significant international public profiles, i.e. celebrities, famous people etc.
Recently we’ve had a singnificant earthquake in my own country. While in absolute terms it’s perhaps of little consequence to many compared to the likes of Haiti, China (Sichuan 2008), Chile, Japan etc. Afterall, there’s less bodies, there’s far less broken buildings, there’s far less human suffering, no nuclear threat and it just doesn’t look nearly as riveting, exciting and devasting on the TV. But in relative terms it’s huge for us here… a third of our second largest city has been destroyed. We’re a small country, not poor…but not wealthy either, we’re a small population and this quake has had a huge impact on many levels, and one that will be felt for a good many years to come. They talk of 6-degrees of seperation globally, but here in NZ it is only 2-degrees. We all know someone…
So I do wonder about what the criteria is that people use to decide which disaster to support? Why did we rise to the occasion back in 2004 when SE Asia was hit by a Tsunami? Why did we support Haiti? - and yet not China in 2008 where 240,000 lives were lost ? Not Chile? - and while I know one of us recently tried to raise a bit of interest, seemingly no one was particularly interested in supporting the tragedy in the country where one of your very own ‘brothers’ lives - i.e. New Zealand. So I am now left wondering why the fate of Japan is apparently so compelling and seemingly has preference for you? Is it really a concern for the people of Japan? Do you feel closer to Japan than you do other locales for some reason? I wonder how many here have close connections to Japan? Chile? China? Haiti? …New Zealand? So perhaps it really is something else that really motivates but has unwittingly been cloaked as an act of selective altruism?
One thing I have learned very recently is that what is needed most during the aftermath of these environmental, ‘acts of God’ type disasters, apart from of course the immediate efforts from the brave and courageous search and rescue teams, civil defence agencies, fire departments, police and military etc, is simply money. Money generously donated via appropriate organised agencies, e.g. Red Cross etc. Peopel here say “what can I do to help?” The answer is always… “give money”.
So, needless to say, with a significant natural disaster here on my own doorstep I have quite a new perspective on these events and suitable ways to respond to them these days.
So, I say go ahead - put together your song. It will be fun and it will feel good. You will spend several weeks doing it, and you will likely feel virtuous about what you are doing, you will feel like you are contributing toward a worthy cause and you will feel like a ‘brother in arms’ by being part of something that you have convinced yourself, in whatever way works for you, as being significant and meaningful.
And you will also have a wide and varied list of reasons and validations, spiritual, religious, practical whatever, as to why you believe it is in fact a worthwhile and benefical thing to do. You will also undoubtably believe at some level that it will make a difference. I have no doubt you will also debate, you will also argue, and you will invariably toss around your various life philosophies, postulations, theories, beliefs, attitudes and assumptions in the process. And indeed it looks like you already have. (That’s perhaps one useful spin off when you think about it!).
Eventually, after a few intensive weeks of email and forum exchanges, busy times in your respective studios composing and recording etc etc you will finally produce a song. I look forward to hearing the results of your efforts. You will then put it up on a website somewhere. And then, you will do what you can to try attract as many people as you can to visit that website and encourage them to make a donation in return for a download. I know I did back in 2004 and again in 2010. In 2004/2005 we had a dedicated website setup, we spread the word as best we could. I even contacted the local press here, managed to negotiate a free press release, attained an official endorsement from World Vision, and as you will see from the link above, even had an announcement in a major musicians mag down this way.
Unfortunately I rather suspect the outcome of this effort will be similar to past efforts. Later, as the weeks pass you’ll sadly realise that your endevours have raised an inconsequential amount of money, the one thing most needed from those not actively involved in search and rescue and relief efforts. You’ll then likely start to feel a tad disappointed, jaded and disallusioned even. I know I certainly did.
So, you can do all that, and I sincerely wish you good luck as I’m sure the musical result of your efforts will result in a very classy production. There’s a lot of talent here afterall. I suggest you have fun with it as I’m sure you will, collaborate, make a song, enjoy the process and meanwhile if you’re really concerned for the plight of Japan, (as opposed to Chile, China, New Zealand and anywhere else that is suffering under ‘acts of God’, acts of war or acts of oppression, or whatever) then dig into your respective pockets, pull out a tenner and donate it to Red Cross. Collectively it will certainly amount to more as far as what is actually needed is concerned. Anything else in my (new) opinion is deluded but I have to admit, also a lot of fun.
Hi Ian, All good words, works, and reality no doubt, I’ve already done a private donation to both Japan and New Zealand relief (and I encourage others to do so also), so participating in this little project will , as you say, make me feel good, whether it raises anything more than positive vibes so be it. Damn, I like feeling good.
You’ll recall I did suggest to the forum that we start something for New Zealand, it fell on apparently deaf ears. Sorry that this lot don’t love your turf so much. I agree it is odd how people choose their targets.
And I offer up here my sincerest thank yous for your previous charitable efforts… but let me ask, do you feel discouraged, cheated or dismayed that you made those efforts despite the outcome?
Cheers - R
Hi Doug
Thank you for laying your cards out on the table.
The little old lady is sacred.
You’ve been holding her in front of an oncoming bus.
Paul does that too.
You held her in a designated bus lane. John built that lane to carry musical passengers to a specific destination.
You said “I can’t win”
I say you can do more than win.
Because I know you are a principled man.
By not “vocally opposing”, you would enable “poison” at the level of content.
Your choice to “Do it head on as soon as possible” proves your sincere commitment against poison.
By not taking the discussion elsewhere, you have been enabling “poison” at the level of context.
By saying, head on and as soon as possible “let’s take it somewhere else” you will have an opportunity of winning TWICE
Your principles you will honour at the level of both content and context.
In this specific case, Steve’s discussion thread was precisely designed for your and Paul’s discussion. Robin said “garbage”. Let’s check with him whether it would have come across as garbage if it had been in the right container.
In a hospital plasma bag, diamonds are garbage to be removed.
Another view is that distinguishing and separating them adds value to each. .
The patient will not be torn apart by injected sharp stones.
The necklace [unless we are Goths] will not want to make us puke when we see it.
I value your and Paul’s input on the forum and I oppose anything which might interfere with it finding its appropriate setting.
Also, I’ve valued Paul for TEN years.
And unless you want Paul banned from this forum, don’t let the ‘rightness’ of your point blind you to your collusion in the kind of disruption which supported his demise from the old forum. This place is his home too.
Moreover, you are part of what has deprived this forum of a thriving MUSIC thread. Forget what you and John now may or may not be sorting out in private. He has, quite correctly, in my opinion, taken his BUS off the BUS Lane … because you two held your OLD LADY in the middle of it. It WAS a bus where EVERYBODY ON THE FORUM could have taken the ride from start to finish. Members could have been checking in. Little bits of micro-off-topic CRAIC and Humour. CUBASE LOUNGE. The fun of its process for people here is destroyed
Forget whether you can justify yourself. These are the implications. The consequences.
Do you ever want to do that again?
Finally, Paul is your good fecking FRIEND godammit. You know in the last few years, he’s gone through phases of being less level than he needs to be. We ALL go through these. You, Doug ARE a level guy.
My Kim has sometimes behaved like an IEEEEEJOT … but does that mean I was going to pussy pander while he lost everything? No Way. You’ve not been a pussy pander either, but, as is true for Each one of us, your claim to membership of “We’re all men here” comes up for renewal each and every time you utter a syllable. To each person, and for each post.
In the spirit of following my own suggestion: If this does not make immediate immediate multi “doh” sense to you, please quote, and put a link to the Off Topic thread, and we can continue there. Unless you reckon there is a ‘Formal Thread’ we can start on issues of … feckit … Preserving endangered Species. This would include the interests of Brains, Conman … heck … has Bill ever been banned? Don’t want to lose him … hangon YOU’ve been banned. That mustn’t happen either. No.
OK … sorry … in THIS post I Have been scolding you.
Take care, Doug.
Glyn
Thanks Glyn
My comments about the “lady and the bus” had zero to do with John, his relief effort, or this thread – just Paul’s inserted commentary.
And, regarding “taking it elsewhere” – fair enough. More than once in this discussion I’ve lost track of which thread was which – my bad.
But personally I’m not so militant about “hijacks” and “OT posts.” People sometimes react to them a bit hysterically, IMO. In a real world, verbal conversation, I would of course observe various rules of decorum and etiquette and refrain from interrupting and inserting myself in the middle of such. But this is a bit different, this online discussion board construct. Even so, I do in fact rarely go OT, let alone hijack a thread… but as I said, I’ve been under a wee bit of pressure to “step up” and rejoin certain posts that call for it. And let’s be real, shall we? Any OT baloney Paul and I or others have engaged in isn’t going to affect the outcome of the relief song efforts in any way whatsoever.
I rate the gravity of the Japan situation close to “10” on a 1-10 scale. I rate the gravity of everything else going here about a 1.5
Mr Ian
As usual, your decency and moderation have, IMO, bridged the gap between what I’ve been saying and what others have been saying. Thank you.
I’m tempted to post attachments of the various checks I’ve sent in these disaster relief efforts, even though that would be entirely self-serving and self-defeating.
But you’re spot on: I never did anything regarding either the China quake nor the NZ quake (and neither have any of our American celebrities and leaders that often initiate or galvanize such efforts) and, sadly, I think this may because our media don’t give the same coverage to events in the Orient/Far East like they should. That of course doesn’t absolve me from doing my part, and I’m going to exit right now an look into whatever options still remain for helping with those past events.
Not to mention reacting to them based upon who the posters are. i.e an excuse to denigrate. The game is transparent to all.
And let’s be real, shall we? Any OT baloney Paul and I or others have engaged in isn’t going to affect the outcome of the relief song efforts in any way whatsoever.
Of course it isn’t but then it’s not about any effect on the relief song efforts and you know it 
Ian,
I can only answer your question with “I don’t know”, why certain disasters are responded to more than others.
I could make a few guesses.
Firstly, I applaud you for all you did after the Indonesian tsunami. You were tireless and amazing. That was our
first disaster response as a community, and it really felt great to be a part of it, and we really felt we could make some small difference. Apparently we were wrong.
Some reasons:
speaking for myself, I’m uncomfortable taking the lead on these kind of projects. I don’t have the
focus or organizational skills that you and some others have, and I’d be truly stressed out trying to handle a project
like that with files coming in from all areas. I’d always feel like it was taking me too long and I was keeping everyone waiting. I’m sure you must’ve felt some of that.
What I always do is offer to contribute bass and/or vocals to any project that is started, because I know I can do
those things in a timely fashion.
I honestly didn’t see Robin’s thread about responding to the New Zealand earthquake. If I did I’d have lent my support.
Anyway, we responded to the Indonesian disaster because it was the first one that happened since this
forums beginnings, to my knowledge, and we felt compelled to respond.
that same year, in the US we had Hurricane Katrina which devastated New Orleans and Mississippi and parts of Florida, and it
never occurred to me that we should do a relief effort here. I knew the US is an economic power and we could
handle our own disaster. There was a celebrity fundraiser for it, but to my knowledge it was American artists
(Melissa Etheridge comes to mind) involved, and we felt we could deal with it internally.
China was a huge disaster , and I don’t want to start a political discussion here, but many people MAY have felt
that A). China is an economic superpower, and B). some folk may be a bit fearful of the Chinese govt. and unsure how they’d react to outside interference in their affairs, even if it’s charitable. I may be wrong about this.
I think people responded to Haiti because those people were poor, hungry and suffering before the quake,
and the quake left them utterly helpless. They were desperate and deserving of world support.
I’d imagine the reaction wasn’t the same in Christchurch because the death toll was relatively low, wasn’t it.
I believe it was around 200 there. Something that people may believe the local government can handle.
Japan, I think, evokes the reaction it does, despite their wealth, because of the sheer enormity of it. The biggest quake in recorded history, isn’t it, followed by the tsunami and now the potential nuclear meltdown. I know I’ve had the strongest personal reaction to this disaster, based on what I’ve seen on tv. If you can get more devastating than devastation - well Japan has done it, haven’t they?
When I can afford to, and usually I can, I give to victims of any disaster out of empathy for them.
Any disaster is life changing for those who are directly affected by it, but I suppose you need
high death tolls, suffering and massive physical devastation to stir up an outpouring worldwide,
China being the notable exception to that, and I can only guess as to the reasons.
this is all not necessarily the way -I- view these tragedies, Ian, but out of respect for what you’ve done
on people’s behalf, and because of your seeming disillusionment with all of this, I thought you deserved a response.
Peace,
Lenny
Hi Robin, I have no regrets about the efforts I and others made at the time, but I certainly was disappointed with the ‘reality check’ outcomes afterwards. As I said, it was all good fun at the time, and similarly, later with the “Tammo” tribute project as well, “Beyond The Rocks And Fog” - both quite exhausting admittedly in terms of facilitation and organisation, but never-the-less quite rewarding from a creative and 'sleeves rolled up getting stuck into something" point of view.
@Doug and Lenny… I read your respective responses. Appreciated. Cheers
I’m mindful of not hijacking this thread more than it has already suffered, so I wont make any further comment - I’ve probably said all I need/want to say I … so appologies to John for perpetuating the hijack. 
I will close by saying that I think it unlikely I’ll be involved in any future fundraiser-type collabs here. Tributes I can do… for me they still have merit.
Locally, I simply made a donation for Christchurch earthquake relief and then went next door and helped the old lady that lives there carry her new microwave oven up a flight of stairs, unboxed it and set it up for her.
You’re one of the world’s decent people fella!
To all: Hijack away. 
I’m enjoying reading the posts now. The vibe is much better. Maybe I shouldn’t have titled the thread in such a way. What happened in Japan did initiate the response, but there are major events in many places of the world at this point (even the Gulf oil spill is back, but it seems to have disappeared from the media after seeing one snippet about it on the weather channel).
Found another snippet: http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2011/03/buckled-pipe-kept-blowout-preventer-from-shutting-off-gulf-oil-spill/1
Hundreds of square miles of slick… again.
…and the ChristChurch earthquake (I haven’t forgotten about this Ian).
…and Louisiana and Haiti are still rebuilding, and more…
Early on, I had decided on shifting the focus of the lyrics from Japan specifically to something with more of a global context (I did mention this early on but I think it was kind of buried under all the craziness that was going on at the time). That way, if we earn 10$, we can at least spread the wealth evenly (ie… 2$ donation to each of the efforts). 
I had suggested something similar during Haiti - the idea that we get away from a specific cause as such and generally embark on, and continue to develop a generalised fundraising focus, perhaps team up with PIH or similar. I wondered if by doing that and looked at establishing a more formal relationship with a particular organisation like PIH whether then we would get much closer to desired goals. If the chosen charity organisation, with their MUCH larger public profile were to promote what we’re doing as part of their general marketing and merchandising campaigns, because ultimately they and their activities will benefit, then I suspect the outcome would be far more rewarding all round.
Ah yes … I remember Larry mentioning to me that he’d been doing setting-up work in a direction like the one yuo mention, in the letters he was writing when doing publicity for Musicians for Haiti, and that he’d tentatively established a name for the project.
I do know he has a lot on his mind at the moment.
That is a great idea. Maybe we can entertain the thought of re-releasing former music with the same goal to make an entire benefit CD?
One of the Agenda.
Where to begin??
This thread had already been trashed, even though there was a separate thread to voice concerns
about this project. Everyone has already had a chance to say their piece, and it was decided that John
will go ahead with the project, and Robin, Glyn and I have agreed to contribute.
Now - a week later - Steve decides to mock the ones contributing to this song, and his toady Woodlock
comes along with more of his childish schoolyard taunting.(this is what Glyn means by ‘latching’ or ‘shirt tails’) Good K/Bad K?? Let’s call it what it is -
meanspiritedness and people acting like arseholes.
I read your comments to Glyn in the other thread, Steve, and yes, it takes two to tango - but it only takes
one to -instigate- the BS - and that is clearly what you’ve done here( hiding your intent behind smiley’s is transparent and means nothing), and Woodlock has once again shown
that he is a -coward- by egging you on and taunting people who he’s put on his foe list, showing that
the foe list had nothing to do with him seeking peace, and everything to do with not having to face the ones
he’s going after.
But, hey, Steve does need his sh_i_tz and giggles 
- and apparently can’t get them anywhere but here,
so I guess we’ll be dealing with his juvenile nonsense and Woodlocks small minded taunting for a long time - or until the mods finally decide that simply deleting threads isn’t stopping the behavior - personal warnings followed by bannings seems to be what’s needed to get this forum back to the mostly friendly, inviting place it was before they changed the software.
Hey Lenny, you do know Steve is playing on this as well, don’t ya?