Song Starter / Japan Relief

Steinberg Lounge
41

Good morning.

The quake/tsunami/meltdown victims did nothing to provoke or incur what happened to them. In the Libyan case, the targets are not exactly innocent – assuming of course we are in fact targeting the forces that are A. attacking what are (I hope) “freedom fighters” and that B. they are the same forces that have caused much murder/harm/mischief over the years – numerous bombings of cafes and such in Europe, 40 years of dictatorship over a people yearning for freedom, bastards that have enriched themselves by the nation’s oil wealth while the vast majority of the population live in poverty, and last and MOST OF ALL – the murderous m-otherf-uckers who have ADMITTED they were responsible for the deaths of 243 passengers and 16 crew members and eleven people on the ground at Lockerbie

In fact, I will write a rousing MARCH OF F-UCKING TRIUMPH WHEN THE BASTARD IS DEAD!!!

42

Libya, Godaffi and Megrahi had NOTHING to do with the Lockerbie plane bombing. Megrahi was convicted on bent evidence from a paid off Maltese clothes shop owner. The plane that was bombed over Lockerbie contained US agents who were bringing back evidence against US ruling Elite and was brought down to prevent that evidence getting back.

Even a top Scottish Police chief has testified that the Lockerbie evidence was messed with. CIA/FBI agents were on the Lockerbie crash site within minutes, proving foreknowledge. So please stop getting “lynch mob” over innocent people. They did NOT admit the responsibility and had nothing to do with it.

As for the rest of your post you are soaking up the propaganda of the Western media too much. Godaffi runs a non democratic regime. Saudi, Israel, UAE, Bahrain, etc,etc,etc are alos non democratic regime and Israel in particular has caused far more unspeakable atrocities than Libya has ever done. The USA has caused even more.

In fact, I will write a rousing MARCH OF F-UCKING TRIUMPH WHEN THE BASTARD IS DEAD!!!

I assume you’ll extend the same sentiments to the people who are responsible for far more suffering and deaths than Godaffi? i.e Obama, Bush, Blair. Livni, Netanyahu, Cameron. Rice, Albright. Cheney, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, Clinton, the neocons, Kissinger, Brzezinski, etc, etc.

The innocent Libyans, along with the innocent Afghans, Iraqis, Palestinians, Pakistanis, etc who are being slaughtered on a daily basis by the Western Mercenaries did nothing to provoke or incur what happened to them any more than the Japanese victims of the earthquake did. The current ME uprisings are a planned destabilisation by “Western” forces and has been on the cards for a 100 years or more. The destruction of the Ottoman Empire and the creation of temporary countries with arbitrary boundaries by the West ( Iraq,Iran, Transjordan, etc ) was a previous chapter in this long term agenda.

43

^^^^^^^^

Hi John

I want to contribute to your thread. However, I have to wade through a wide patch of shallow water before I can reach the dry-land you built in your thread-title.
It is too wide for me to jump over, for by ignoring it, I would by default be deserting the general principle of ‘on-topic’ and specifically undermining by ‘silence means assent’, the topic, which you as host have attempted to maintain.


When I put in my 2 cents, even to support yout host’s decision, I am simply adding more lines of text to the off-topic diversion … I add to the entrapment-by-consensus that this is More Really, by dint of participants’ insistence, a Discussion Thread.


To an ignorant observer, you could appear to be a weak member who cannot host his own thread, and may not, perhaps, therefore, be relied on to generate or maintain high standards of headway in personal or professional projects. Or for people who perform heirarchical assessment on corporate systems, you come ‘low down the ladder’ in the alpha-dog world. YOUR TREE is ok for others to piss on. Even though they may, if challenged, deny it the stream and the stench is obvious, because the issue here is not about the sincerity of the ‘discussers’ intent. It’s about whether your thread is getting systematically trashed.


On the old forum, where I was a an ostritch-pussy, John, or before I had got to know you a bit better, I’d have politely PM’d you to say I withdraw my offer of poetic voiceover. I’d have given you an excuse. My real reason is that I’d have felt intimidated and scared that my musical and personal intent would get trampled on by ‘the big boys’ - because when they are on top form, Doug and Paul ARE imo the ‘Warrior Debaters’ on this forum.
I’d have wimped out. I’d have feld a sense of humiliation and shame.

If I’d remained in your project, then at best, I would have felt a weak sense of atonement … a yucky sense that I had been ‘forgiven for being a bit ignorant of larger issues.’ And as we posted the song, the echoes of that assertion of the immaturity of our approach would damp my sense of achievement. I’d have felt that I was part of a group of losers. A group of children who made a nice sandcastle while the adults put their beach-towels in the centre of our workspace and talked grown-up talk.


Alternatively, If, in this thread, I’d made the above point, said “leave me out of this project, there’s just too much stife - not your fault, mate but, well, on this forum, what can you do.” Then I’d have been throwing my toys out of the pram … well because I’d come to feel that the pram was of diminished worth, my toys would have dripped from my grip.





What I WANTED to say when I opened this thread was:

Hi John
I’m glad the song is coming on well. I propose that when it is complete except for my poetic voiceover at the end, I will do a ‘best quality’, but would make clear that it is to be ‘vetted for meaning’ by you and whoever writed the main lyrics. I want you and the lyricist to asses that it is aligned with the truth of your hearts. At which point I will deem my work to be complete, or will re-write as needed.

Best wishes
Glyn

44

Very well said, Glyn. PW will stay blissfully in the dark on this issue. He’s on a crusade, and forum rules, respect
for others well intentioned threads - and common decency be damned. He’s put you on his foe list because he’s afraid of any scrutiny of his intent. His input into this thread leaves no question of that.

I’m interested to know what other members think about PW’s treatment of this thread. Is it appropriate,
especially when Steve has already opened a discussion thread about this very topic? This is John’s thread
to begin a song, and seek out collaborators. His decision has been made.

45

Hi Lenny

I feel that if it’s made ‘about’ Paul’s behaviour, it needs to be about Doug’s behaviour too. He could have said “Paul, I was making direct response to John, I appreciate your taking up further discussion with me, let’s stake it to Steve’s thread, where it belongs, or, at least, where the space is not against the wishes of the John whose thread is explicitly for his music work”


It risks also being about MY behaviour … Maybe I should have created my own thread, though that might have been seen as ‘blowing somethign up to a wrong level’ … Zebbie’s ‘Idiot’ thread was charged with that … though i DO ask where he could have expressed his concern elsewhere without trashing the threads of others.

Lenny - you want to set up a discussion …er …


How’s about waiting until John comes on … and asking him whether he will give his blessing for your discussion to take place in HIS thread, or whether he prefer that you take it elsewhere?

I add my own urge that it should not ber ‘just about ‘Paul’ or indeed just about ‘paul and doug’ … because the ‘off-topic private/platform conversations in others’ threads’ has been done by quite a lot of people.

Including You and Me at this moment :imp:

It serves to make John look even more … kind of … NOT master in his own ‘home’. Believe me, I’m Hating myself SO much right now, and John, forgive, please my clumsiness as my attempt to honour your hosting has served rather to thave the opposite effect.

46

I find the whole discussion in this thread a bit appaling. John started this with as far as I can see the best possible intentions and doesn’t deserve this at all in my opinion.
The question wether or not it is effective is valid but not a reason to talk anyone off participating in this project because with the right intentions it can’t hurt.

I’d be grateful if the entire political discussion could be had elsewhere (the other topic), including all the conspiracy theories.

47

Yep, I am banging my head against the wall on this one. Did not read it for a while, come back and its festering again. Especially after what we generally stated about half-way back after the first round of trolling.

John, I am still interested, please PM me details.

Everyone else who’s spewing ideological detritus (and vainly propping up their egos in this particular topic), go do something constructive elsewhere, you won’t sway the world here. Thanks.

Sheesh

48

Ok, there is a lot to go through here. I saw the beginning of this last night, and since, have been debating on whether to address the outstanding issues with simple poignant statements or something a little more intricate. I chose the latter… mainly because all of this supports the project on so many levels. So, since this thread is mainly about the music, I’ll start there.

When I write a song. I don’t get attached to it for a long time. This allows me the freedom of not being the leader of the final product. One can offer or initiate something, provide guidance, and yet still not lead the evolution of the product itself. It is a dance of mental and emotional internal processes. There is a reason for this. The reason is that the final product becomes a truly equal effort. Each participant has to go through their own introspection, walk their own path, and come out of it with choices made and determination set. What this does for the song is give it an injection of presence of each individual, so the music and the notes become infused with the suffering and trial of each. There is an element of introspection in the cadence of the song, so for each person to experience it for themselves make it more real and more valued, and hopefully more effective as an end result.

…and based upon the light of these recent events, Robin, Glyn, Lenny: I’d like you to write some poetry / prose for the lyrical content. Steve, if you have had anything come to mind as well, throw it in the pot! I can just see you thinking, “whatever!” :unamused: We need some of that too, for a little balance. Don’t worry about the format yet. I’ll be able to work that out as we go. But the depth of this disaster and our own struggle to verify whether our contribution is worthy makes it all the more valid.

So now on to the rest of the stuff. For me, this is a public forum. People will post what they want regardless of the topic. If this makes me seem weak, then so be it. But the reality is that I don’t have anymore attachment to this thread than I do any other forum thread on any other forum. In my eyes, everyone who has posted here has become stronger and more resolute in regards to their decisions on this project. So it’s a good thing. I absolutely deteste having to motivate everyone around me to get involved in something if their heart’s not in it. When this project hits the next step (ie… moving files back and forth), then yeah, I’ll take it private.

[ordered from earliest to latest]

@Doug- Consider it this way.
I started a project.
You voiced your feelings in opposition to this project.
You made a judgement call, regarding “me feeling helpless and wanting to do something”.
You called this “a musical ditty”, which in my opinion trivialized the project and the time and effort involved.

While the things you have highlighted are indeed not “harsh”, you have omitted (albeit unconsciously) the things that are.
What you see is not necessarily what I see.
Admittedly, your statements were not as harsh as Pauls, it doesn’t remove them from that category IMHO.
I have formerly apologized to all I put off from my own initial knee-jerk reactions. You’ll have to live with that.

@Glyn (earlier post)- A little internal struggle is good. It keeps one real. Make your own decisions based on your own thoughts, not anyone elses.

@Strophoid- Thanks for your support. While I was initially very aggrivated by those comments, I’ve been able to brush them off since.

@Lenny- Good comment. Yes, my decision has been made and I am committed to it. I am very good at keeping promises where it affects others.

@Glyn- Regarding being the “Master of my own home”. Personally, I don’t see a problem at the moment. It’s like a party in here. :wink: I’m renting a space, a lot of people have showed up and congretated into groups with similar interests. I’m fine with that, especially while we’re still kind of in the brainstorming mode. It’ll settle down shortly.

@Robin- I am glad you are still interested. Don’t take this current thread too heavily. We’ll be able to dig into the song itself once I post it. Then the entire attention to what is and is not important will shift more towards the project in general.

49

No worries, I’ve already stated my opinions. Just hope by the time this project is a little more together that I will have time, there is a gig looming ahead of me which may consume what little extra time I have. We do what we can.

Cheers

50

Hey John

I say things how I see them. I can see how they may be considered harsh but I certainly mean nothing personal by them. Even though my view still stands I do respect your reasons and sentiments for wanting to create a Japan Aid song. If my comments have fired you up to be even more passionate in your project then good for you. :slight_smile:

The ‘foe feature’ is continuing to serve my visits here well btw

51

I understand and do respect your view and Dougs. Once I was able to clear my mind, I was able to transform the energy of my reaction to something much more useful. Funny how things work out that way. :slight_smile:

52

Nice one. :slight_smile:

53

I am going to just lay the cards out here, because we’re all men here.

I can’t win. I have been contacted by more than one person privately persuading me to step up and vocally oppose certain posters that are seen to frequently spill poison in this Forum. Then, when I do that, I’m scolded for not doing it in the exact, perfect, specific right place by you, dear Glyn… and then basically told by others, such as the fine gent Robin, to dump my garbage somewhere else.

So I’m just going state bluntly, but “with malice towards none,” that if somebody says something out of line or ridiculous in a particular thread, the best place to answer that is to do it head-on as soon as possible and in the same thread. Yes, it adds to the pollution. But I refer you to a saying I once heard: If one guy pushes a little old lady under an oncoming bus… and another guy pushes a little old lady OUT OF THE WAY of an oncoming bus… it’s quite erroneous to castigate them both as guys who “go around pushing little old ladies around.” :sunglasses:

54

I place considerably more stock in the MSM and the two books I’ve read about the subject than I ever will in anything posted on prisonplanet.com – a place that makes the same sort of assertions but never, I repeat, never provides one scintilla of documentation, attribution, or evidence. Yet guys like you eat it up and regurgitate it as if it’s gospel. It isn’t.

I assume you’ll extend the same sentiments to the people who are responsible for far more suffering and deaths than Godaffi? i.e Obama, Bush, Blair. Livni, Netanyahu, Cameron. Rice, Albright. Cheney, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, Clinton, the neocons, Kissinger, Brzezinski, etc, etc.

Actually, no, I won’t be.

The current ME uprisings are a planned destabilisation by “Western” forces

Since you state this categorically, I assume you have PROOF, not evidence, PROOF… and I’d be glad to look at it. I’m not holding my breath, however.

55

Interesting but totally erroneous assumption.

How on earth can I eat up and regurgitate something from a source that I highly dislike? Alex Jones and prisonplanet is a big joke AFAIC.

I form my viewpoints from actual history regarding agendas in the ME. There’s plenty of documentation all over the place. YOU knw me better than to swallow some guff from prison planet. I haven’ been there or anywhere similar for years, ever since I realised it wasn’t a source to be trusted.

Regarding Lockerbie, there’s plenty of evidence to show that the conviction of Megrahi was completely untenable and the only conclusion is that he was set up. You claimed that “who have ADMITTED they were responsible for the deaths of 243 passengers and 16 crew members and eleven people on the ground at Lockerbie” - yet there’s no evidence of this.

56

All right ya’ll. Enough already. Firstly, Doug and I are working things out (or not) privately in IM. Secondly, poison this thread, trash it… I DON"T REALLY CARE. I may be a person on a path to some sort of enlightenment or whatever, but I shure as h3ll am not going to place a bloated level of importance on an internet forum when it comes to my values (or lack of them), or how well I can understand other peoples POV (or not).

One thing I do know for certain is this. I have now spent about 3x as much time trying to figure out the best ways to respond to this issue as I have actually been making music. This is an inordinate waste of time for me.

So here’s the line in the sand. When I have a rough of the song, this all goes private between the people actually involved. I will post a topic with occasional updates, and I fully expect that it will be “trashed and poisoned” as well, as is the way of the internet. And, guess what, I WON"T CARE THEN, EITHER!!! :stuck_out_tongue:

So from here on out… talk amongst yourselves. I have work to do and promises to keep.



57

Who said anything about Megrahi? I agree, he probably WAS a patsy. I am basing my comments on two reports (unconfirmed) that I’ve read:

don’t recall names, but the Iranian agent in charge of Europe operations defected and told I believe the Germans that Iran asked Libya and Abu Nidal to carry out the attack as retaliation for the Iranian Airbus shoot-down. There’s also a story that Nidal confessed to his involvement on his deathbed.

the head of Libyan Justice Dept (I think that’s what he was) just recently stated in an interview that Col Qadaffi ordered the bombing. To be fair, he’s a guy that has long been at odds with Qadaffi and is part of the current revolt so it’s possible he’s lying in order to get payback

there’s some evidence I recall that the target was actually another plane that was carrying US military personnel, but that the unaccompanied suitcase got routed to the wrong plane (the evidence I believe is solid it originated in Malta)

58

LOL – I guess it’s no longer private now :laughing:

59

I can see I was wise to use the foe function Doug. Doug I suggest you use it too lest you get sucked into what seems an obvious game of personal vendettas against other forum members.

At least John is getting on with his song ( which I respect him for, notwithstanding my view on song for [distaster x].

Why other posters are so obsessed with targeting other posters is beyond me. Seeing my name mentioned there it’s obvious nothing has changed, but using the Foe function I am nicely immune to this nonsense and am enjoying the place again. I suggest you do the same.

60

Your comments regarding the musical tone of what John was suggesting, I read and had no issue with, in fact I was somewhat in agreement. Guys attacking benevolent intent, no matter how futile, puts me off. Nobody wants to be branded a fool for trying.

Your prerogative of course Doug (and Paul) , however John was not out of line or ridiculous…

No malice felt over here. No PMs sent off urging anyone to do anything either, not my soap opera!

I’m tiring of this one. Cheers.