Steinberg - EUCON. Why are you ignoring Avid users?

Everyone who uses a control surface with a DAW necessarily also has a mouse and is abundantly aware of the advantages and disadvantages of those two devices. In fact they are probably more familiar with the relative strengths of those two devices than someone who only uses a mouse.

Exactly. Obviously while editing vocals I don’t even touch a controller surface, but at the mixing stage its impossible not to.
Once again, Im talking about audio post, if I’m in the mood to create some music, the controller becomes redundant.
Also, during my short experience, professional wise, on mixing music, the way you use a mixing desk or controller surface is completely different from the way you use those tools in a Post Production mixing stage. I find that the use of a professional dedicated controller, a Nuage or an S6 for ex, for mixing music, has a more “static” workflow compared to a more automated/hands on faders Post Production workflow.

To me the key argument for a rant against Steinberg’s behaviour concerning EUCON is that the company has explicitely used the “we implement EUCON, support the respective controllers” as a selling argument for Cubase in the past. What - if not this? - could lead to an obligation to continue the support in a professional way?

The stupid argument “would avid support a steinberg-controller” is really making me angry. The ignorance of one supplier should never be used as an argument for the own ignorance!

Please Steinberg - KEEP YOUR PROMISE (there was information by a moderator times ago who even told us that Steinberg were working on an update also correcting the channel-visibility bug/misbehaviour).

We need a reliable supplier. Steinberg? Please - anyone?

Thats why I’ve been on the forums for the past week.
As an Audio Post guy using Nuendo, I don’t have that many alternatives under 5k to do a proper job.
Bought the S3 and Dock 2 years ago, avid sold me on those controllers stating explicit support for Nuendo on their web site.
Don’t get me wrong, even with the known issues, this protocol is way better than MCU. Everything worked fine until the 18.3 release, except for the channel hiding and that mismatch in values between the Nuendo mixer and the S3 faders, not a deal breaker, at least for me.
Then came 18.3, dock lost the jog functions (something crucial for my type of work), then it was 19.5, that completely rendered all my cue send controls to the booth unuseful.
Avid fixed the mixer values discrepancy in 19.5, not steinberg, avid, 3 years after those issues had been reported, 3 years!
But here is the real issue : if you think 19.5 was a mess on cubase/nuendo, on pro tools was the same or even worse, imo.
So, I’ve been around the forums trying to get some awnsers on why things are getting worse regarding a product that was sold to me as cubase/nuendo compatible, and why said software can’t keep up with eucon updates while they state “full eucon support” on their manuals. Both of them are playing ball.
Btw, 19.5.1 is stable, but I don’t know if it’ll stay like that in future updates.

You do realize you’re in the CUBASE forum, right? lmfao

Also, yes. I do a lot of mixing. I’m probably just a lot better and more efficient at mixing than you.

Yes, that’s the issue here. Steinberg advertises eucon support in cubase, but if they don’t fully support it, that is a false claim.

You do realize the EUCON support between Nuendo/Cubase is shared? But if that’s not enough, I have a EUCON controller, use Cubase, and would also like this fixed.

Sorry to say this but: do you realize how uninformed and uneducated you sound regarding this subject?
Lets try this again.
Mixing in post its not the same as mixing a song.
The issues presented on the Eucon software are shared between cubase and nuendo, even more, its shared between Avid hardware.
There was a solo button issue on the latest eucon that was present in the artist series and the s3. Also there was lcd lag issues shared between nuendo/cubase and artist series/s3.
Im on every forum trying to protect my investment for the future, some people play with daws, others make a living out of those. Do you have some kind of problem with that?

Oh are you an amateur? I thought I was talking with another professional, albeit an inferior one.

Get good with the mouse like this and then talk to me about how a mouse can never work:

99% chance you’re just a troll.

Carpal tunnel is a very real issue for those of us who’ve used a mouse extensively for years. As I have found, a control surface massively helped here. Even with all the issues with Eucon, it’s still better (long term) than using a mouse alone. I cant imagine going back to mouse only, just thinking about it and my hand starts to cramp inwards lol.

There are many operations for which a control surface is far superior to a mouse. Try riding two faders at once with a mouse :slight_smile:. Steinberg is lagging a bit and not keeping up with the newest features in Eucon, but for the basic functions it works great.

Arrogance is bliss I guess…

That’s a legitimate concern. I would suggest you get an extra thick mouse pad like this one that I have:

I was having a lot of pain in my hands for a while, and after using this mouse pad, I no longer have any issues. I used to actually buy extra thick socks and cut holes in them so I can wear around my wrists like a glove that would cover my forewarm and wrist but would leave my fingers exposed so as not to restrict movement. That worked pretty well too, but the extra thick mouse pad has made the biggest difference. I no longer need any gloves or anything, and I’m perfectly fine.

I should also mention that (since I didn’t need the extra height of the pad) I cut out a portion of the pad on the top and used that to pad my hands for when they’re placed at the keyboard too. Ohh, and when moving the mouse you should leave enough room on the desktop to rest your forearm, that way your weight can be distributed more evenly and not be focused on the wrist. (It’s easier to do this when you get rid of unnecessary external controllers)

We need to be mindful of the surfaces we use day and day out. The thickness and the fabric you use makes a big difference as well as your work space and weight distribution.

Being a jackass is bliss I guess…

It’s not really hard when you think about it. You can very quickly create VCA Fader to control multiple faders at once. I mean, quite often I find that mouse operations are more powerful than physical faders. Try moving 300 faders by hand for instance.

Also, this may not apply to you, but I use a LOT of automation. Half or more of tracks either can’t be adjusted anyway due to the automation, or I could risk accidentally overwriting important automation. Most consoles don’t display automation. That means I’d have to go into Cubase to check and by that time, since I’m already right there with the mouse, I may as well adjust the levels by hand via mouse.

Of course, if you still have issues with the mouse, what I had suggested a while ago is getting a touch screen. But to each their own. Everyone can have their own preferences and workflows. Not trying to make people mad, they are just choosing to be mad.

Finally, what ‘newest features’ is Steinberg lagging a bit in with regards to Eucon?

The FIRST LAW OF CONTROLLER DESIGN SHOULD BE TO HAVE THE HARDWARE ALWAYS FOLLOW THE DAW SCREEN and vice versa!! It is ridiculous the amount of hours I’ve had to spend developing workarounds just to combat this one issue!

Nuendo gives you 8 Visibility Agents, though you can write as many as you like. But only the 1st 8 can be launched with a single button. For some reason, they won’t allow a Key Command option for additional Agents. Eucon allows 48 Layouts on the Artist Series and double that for the S Series. I had to write 8 Macros to connect 8 matching layouts to the Visibility Agents. If the Agent used more tracks than I had faders available, I had to write a second layout to cover those additional tracks and toggle between the 2. Now, if I add or subtract tracks for whatever reason, all my work is now useless because the layout is fixed. It’s insane! :angry: Who has time to keep writing layouts to keep up with the constantly changing views that will occur during any phase of the process?

Hide Selected Tracks, Channel Expand, Folders, ALL FEATURES DESIGNED TO SPEED UP WORK-FLOW, become impediments when working with the hardware all because the board won’t follow the DAW! The result is most users give up one or the other because of this stand off.

Any of the guys I know using Eucon hardware tell me that they: 1) Just use the faders, Solo/Mutes, Channel Select and Pans. 2) Switched to Pro Tools so that they could use the entire hardware. Both options are unacceptable. EUCON is supposed to work with ALL of the DAWs, that’s it’s primary selling point. Now that Avid owns it, all of us Cubase, DP, Logic, Nuendo, etc Users become increasingly screwed on our investments with each iteration.

Just because our markets won’t justify $35 - $150K expenditures for hardware, doesn’t mean the thousands we did spend came cheap to us! We bought this stuff to HELP!

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE FIX THIS!!! :confused: :cry:

As a recent migrant from DP, I would like to add my voice to those asking for better EUCON implementation. I have multiple Eucon controllers at my studio including an S6 and can’t believe how little functionality I get from Cubase. The situation with DP was no better. I eventually paid an ex Motu programmer to write a custom driver for me. Perhaps that’s what’s needed here…!

I find it absolutely strange and basically a kind of hijacking a thread when people start to discuss the general usefulness of a hardware controller and their personal preference to edit with mouse and/or keycommands in a thread that originally contained a well founded complaint about Steinberg (and Avid) ignoring their user-base with EUCON-Controllers! Steinberg has used the EUCON-Compatibility as a selling argument for Cubase in the past. There is a clear obligation resulting from this.

The thread would deserve a clear statement from Steinberg when they will come up with an improved version for EUCON that at least includes synchronization of mixer visibilities.

Wait, are you saying that the S6 won’t follow the DAW screen for Cubase/Nuendo?!!?

The best way to achieve to the get the updates that are needed to the Steinberg SDK to bring Eucon up to date is to lobby Steinberg directly by emailing support. I have been doing it for a while now and have been told it’s almost ready and be be part of “the next update or the one after” of course those updates have come an gone so more emails to support are required!