Two questions about repeat structure

In general, I am very happy and impressed with the functionality in Dorico 4.3 regarding the insertion and customization of repeats. However, I have two questions that I can’t seem to find an answer for (although I suspect it’s there):

  1. Can you enter a repeat structure that spans part of a bar (e.g. the last two beats)?
  2. How do you tie the last note before a repeat into the repeat ending IF the last note is tied into the first beat of BOTH the first and second endings (easy to tie into the first ending).

Thanks in advance…

You need to add a l.v. tie to the first note of the 2nd time bar, and then manually drag it backwards in Engrave mode. Does this make sense?

Thanks Daniel (and my apologies for the late response). I don’t know what a ‘I.v’ tie is…:slight_smile:

It’s the abbreviation of French laissez vibrer, ‘let ring’, often used on instruments (e.g. harp) where you’re normally expected to stop (muffle) the sound after the written note value. The musical symbol is a short, dangling, unconnected tie, which may be accompanied by the indication l.v.
In Dorico, you can add an l.v. tie in the Properties Panel below.
Scherm­afbeelding 2023-09-04 om 22.24.06

Scherm­afbeelding 2023-09-04 om 22.16.02
In Engrave Mode, you can manipulate the direction of an l.v. tie so that it points backwards in order to fake a connection across a repeat structure. This is a slightly awkward workaround, and it requires a bit of experimenting because the tie will flip upside down when you move one of its ends to the other side.
Scherm­afbeelding 2023-09-04 om 22.21.53

Thanks for the detailed explanation. I still haven’t got the results I wanted because the note at the beginning of the second ending that I want to tie to the last note before the first ending is on a separate line in Page View/Engrave mode and dragging the end of the l.r. to the left and up a line never seems to make a tie with the identical pitch just before the first ending. I have, however, learned (and accomplished) the ‘tie across a repeat structure’ functionality you described when the two pitches are on the same line in Engrave mode.
Thank you!

Can you show us an image of or a Dorico file excerpt of the entire structure so we see what is supposed to tie to what?

Here you go. Because I couldn’t get the last note (B ) in the soprano in bar 4 to tie into the second the first beat of each of the endings, I made the endings two bars instead of one bar., so bars 4 and 6 are duplicates. The actual first and second endings should each be only one bar long (you can see that bars 5 and 7 differ in the bass.)

Thank you for continuing to help with this issue. It’s a small point since there is clearly a work-around in doubling the length of the endings, but it would be nice to not have to do that.

PS. The screenshot shows the l.v. attached to the wrong note from me messing around with trying to get it to work so please ignore it. I think you will clearly se the notes that need to be tied across the repeat structure.

Thanks for this image, but we need to see the measure before the endings as well. Thanks.

Here’s a screenshot with the repeat correctly given just one bar. The problem is tieing the last note of bar four into the first note of the second ending.
Screenshot 2023-09-05 at 5.50.01 PM

As others have patiently explained, this can only be achieved using a laissez vibrer tie and manually adjusting its position in Engrave mode.
And it cannot playback correctly. (Someday the team will provide a way, but apparently it is technically a challenge to do so)

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One could try extending the tied quarter before the beat to be two beats in the key editor, but that may be a stretch.

tiedOverEndingsTest.dorico (549.6 KB)

I understand – and do appreciate – the previous explanations using the l.v in Engrave mode. And I have validated that that strategy works very well IF the two notes to be tied are on the same system in the page layout in Engrave mode. My problem is/was that the two measures were NOT on the same system and I could never come up with a mouse drag that would join the two notes to be tied.

Since Janus seems a bit aggravated that I’m not understanding clear explanations, --and that suggests to me that others are of like mindset – I suggest we close this thread since I have a workaround that singers would understand even though they would think that it was a bit weird in terms of notation.

Thanks to all who contributed to this thread…

@CharlieM22 ,
This is why I asked you for an example. What you sent had everything on one system.

I am happy to try again if you send a revised sample showing the system breaks; or you can send the project in Dorico format, and I’ll try to send you back a revision with the change made if I find it possible.

I wouldn’t worry if not everyone understands an explanation right off the bat (which is why so many of us ask for Dorico excerpts rather than pictures or verbal explanations). Often music is difficult to describe in words, so please do not become frustrated or embarrassed. Persistence pays.

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I’m not aggravated, just trying to offer solutions.

The lv tie never “joins the two notes”, only one. This is a long standing engraving tradition how to show ties across repeat sections.

The lv solution works in the presence of system breaks.

BTW I don’t use mouse drags for this in Engrave, I use the tie properties in the lower panel. Much easier!


Well, I extracted this Bach choral from my larger project and, of course, the layout in Engrave mode now has both endings on the same line…:-). I’ve attached the file if it’s of any use now…

I attached an l.v. to the first note of the second ending and tried (without success) to tie it to the last note before the first ending. I’m definitely not very knowledgable about the intricacies of engraving in general (as evidenced by my inept abuse of the word ‘join’ (above)),
Chorals–41-50 - -43B.dorico (719.1 KB)
and Dorico’s Engrave mode in particular, so knowing where to start to identify the coordinates of the tie is a black box for me. (I suspect it’s probably pretty straightforward since the Engrave mode’s underlying architecture is based on general document layout principles).

I think this Forum is really excellent in the way that people with real experience can weigh in on specific questions to help the questioner not only solve their problem, but also understand a bit more of the Dorico world and therefore learn a bit more with each question.

I’m not surprised. You are trying to do something that is not possible. (As we have all repeatedly tried to explain to you)

Remember that the l.v. trick is a workaround, not a true solution. You can’t actually tie notes across a repeat, you can only fake the appearance. A leftward-pointing l.v. tie is still just a fairly meaningless graphic object, it doesn’t tie anything.

Thanks. I now understand that the l.v. on the first note of the second ending is just a graphic indication of a tie back to the last note before the first ending and that there is no way to show the actual tie between the two notes.

If it were possible to have a repeat structure for just the second half of the bar, the first ending would span beats 3 and 4 of bar 5 and the second ending the same beats in bar 6, and the tie between the last beat of bar 4 and the first beat of bar 5 would remain, being played with both the first and second endings.
Thanks for all the input. I think the original duplicate bars in a 2-bar repeat structure is probably the clearest (and certainly the only one that plays back accurately).

Sorry to be so dense on this thread. You might consider ignoring any future posts from me to avoid unnecessary frustration with slow learners…:slight_smile: