VST plugins get wrong multichannel settings Nuendo 13

Nuendo
1

Hi there

I am experiencing a very strange behavior of some of my multichannel plugins in Nuendo 13. For example, when I insert an instance of Fabfilter R-2 into a 9.1.6 bus, I can sometimes only set the plugin up to 7.1.4 (input) or sometimes even stereo.

Same happens to my APL Virtuoso, which should also run fine in 9.1.6 and sometimes does, but sometimes gets restricted by Nuendo to Stereo (input).

Sometimes I can fix that by unloading the plugin and starting it new, sometimes not.

I don’t get it - is this a known bug, or am I missing out on something very basic? Please help! Many thanks!

2

there is a new update that is supposed to fix this!

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Its standard to test vst in nuendo and aax in protools….almost every other DAW has its own private channel mapping quirks . This is an old pdf shared by the developer of Stratus 3D. Before he left Izotope.
Page 55 discusses the issue relating to channels.

This is straight from the email exchange I had.

As developer for the Exponential Audio plug-ins specifically designed the “3D” versions of Symphony and Stratus to run in Pro Tools (AAX) or Nuendo (VST3). While other VST3 hosts may be able to open Symphony 3D and Stratus 3D, this will not be officially supported and you may encounter issues with the channel mapping as each DFAW handles this differently.

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Well aware of this quirkyness, not sure how on topic this is. The issue is not that it goes wrong in any random plugin; but in virtuoso. They claim it has been worked around, i would like to know if that is the case indeed.

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As I stated in my first post, its not only Virtuoso, but also other multichannel plugins. That’s why I assume it’s a Nuendo problem rather than a third party one.

Also, the quoted Virtuoso update is outdated, they didnt figure anything new in the meantime. The channel mapping of Dolby Atmos is a completely different topic.

So, nobody else has this weird Nuendo behaviour??

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Hi there are some plugins that don’t adhere to Nuendo specifications, but most do.
I can understand that It can be frustrating when a plugin you have invested does not work as expected.
Now Nuendo has some exceptional tools that you can try and iron out the issue till the time they are not fixed by the plugin manufacturer.
Meanwhile here are some of the workarounds you can try.
You can use the MixerDelay plugin in Nuendo to remap your plugin out. You can also use Melda MChannelMatrix to do the same.

On the suggestion of Nuendo changing its workflow to match some laziness of plugin developers will break hundreds of films, documentaries etc that was successfully done on it for decades. It would be suicidal. For it to even contemplate such a move…I hope you get the gist.

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Adding to the above…This is how I ended using Stratus to adhere to reaper for Atomant game cinamatics… engaging with reaper developers to change their workflow would have lead us nowhere, so we contacted the plugin developer and I shared his message above. So I found a way to patch and reroute the plugin to adhere to reaper…
And yes Izotope has sill not fixed it even after 5 years.
I stuck to Stratus 3d because I know it so well that it takes a few minutes to match rooms, or create one that works for the scene under consideration. And i can sympathise with your R2 reverb experience.

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On the suggestion of Nuendo changing its workflow to match some laziness of plugin developers will break hundreds of films…

Unless they make it a switchable option in Project Settings.
So that those projects can remain in the old order, unaffected. And new projects can move forward with the correct order :partying_face:.
Even though some plugin developers would drag their feet in bringing their channel order in line with SMPTE. It would start the ball rolling.

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Over time you love and hate some. I had heavily invested in Izotope and Wave for more then a decade but lately I had started to see cracks appear.

When they launched PSP auralControl it was heaven sent, but there were some workflow issues so I contacted them.

“Hi Greetings First and foremost, I really love the idea of of surround controller. Previesly I was using Wave 360 manager which was limited to 5.1 only. So thanks for the app. Two questions. One - I have a 5.1.4 setup for immersive surround mix. and there are no preset for either 5.1.2 or 5.1.4 and are the rpresets coming, or is it possible too set it up for these manually. Second - I use my laptop running Mac and desktop running windows. can I run on both with a single license. Regards RM”

I immediately received an answer from them

“I will add 5.1.4 and other formats as soon as possible.”
Best regards,
Adam Taborowski

I opened another support ticket for “Any update on PSP auralControl crashing resolve fairlight

HI Greetings
Thanks for adding support for 5.1.4 ‘
just a quick feedback, the plugin works fine, I can control individual channels, calibrate their output by fader but then locks up Resolve/Fairlight and the Atmos projects refuses to start and only opens up once I disable the plugin.
Regards
RM

“We are working on the update of the auralControl when the beta will be ready for testing I would send you a link.
Warm regards from Warsaw
Antoni Ozynsk

“And I will add 5.1.4 and other formats as soon as possbie.”
Best regards,
Adam Taborowski

And within few weeks I received a fix which worked like a charm.

“Hi Rajiv,
I hope everything is ok.
FYI We just released the update of auralControl to version 1.2.2.
PSP auralControl was crashing DaVinci Resolve while loading session (VST3 format only). The main reason of the issue is that DaVinci Resolve software returns invalid DATA for VST3 plugins. We have prepared a quick fix that restores 99% of the plugin’s state (PSP auralControl) which should be all that is needed (only some paths for presets might be missing). We have contacted DaVinci Resolve developers’ team - so hopefully they will fix that as soon as possible. PSP auralControl shouldn’t cause any more crashes in DaVinci resolve.
Regards from Poland. Be safe and healthy.
Antoni Ozynski”

And I really like them. The Govt. of India project I was working on was very important. And I fell in love with PSP for quickly resolving the issues.

Another heaven sent plugin that is fast replacing Izotope and Wave is from the humble Toneboosters.
It solves a critical workflow issue for 7.1.2 bus processing.
Their version 4 compressor and Eq has something called channel linking. In our animation renderer we have something called light linking, it’s similar and it has saved me tons of headache and has replaced Neutron.

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For information, VST3 specifies some speakers arrangements and the order (based originally on the Microsoft Wave format).
[3.0.0] Multiple Dynamic I/O Support - VST 3 Developer Portal (steinbergmedia.github.io)

For example:

Since Version 3.7.0 (2020/07/29) - VST 3 Developer Portal

  • k91_4 => L R C Lfe Ls Rs Lc Rc Sl Sr Tfl Tfr Trl Trr
  • k91_6 => L R C Lfe Ls Rs Lc Rc Sl Sr Tfl Tfr Trl Trr Tsl Tsr

Since Version 3.7.9 (2023/10/09) - VST 3 Developer Portal => including L and R Wide

  • k90_4_W => L R C Ls Rs Sl Sr Tfl Tfr Trl Trr Lw Rw
  • k91_4_W => L R C Lfe Ls Rs Sl Sr Tfl Tfr Trl Trr Lw Rw
  • k90_6_W => L R C Ls Rs Sl Sr Tfl Tfr Trl Trr Tsl Tsr Lw Rw
  • k91_6_W => L R C Lfe Ls Rs Sl Sr Tfl Tfr Trl Trr Tsl Tsr Lw Rw
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I absolutely get this behavior in Nuendo 13 across a large number of surround-capable plugins that support 9.1.6 in and out. The input configuration defaults to Stereo with the orange “reset” box of doom. Clicking Reset has no effect. Selecting 9.1.6 has no effect. Selecting 7.1.4 or smaller channel configs work, but of course they are not the correct input arrangement!

The plugins work in Reaper. Just not Nuendo 13. Silicon or Rosetta makes no difference… Unloading and reloading the plugin makes no difference for me.

Plugins that don’t work in Nuendo in 9.1.6 include:

LiquidSonics Cinematic Rooms Professional
LiquidSonics Seventh Heaven Professional
LiquidSonics Lustrous Plates Surround
Reverb Foundry Tai Chi
Reverb Foundry HD Cart
Exponential Audio Stratus 3D
Exponential Audio Symphony 3D
Fiedler Audio Spacelab Interstellar
Fiedler Audio Gravitas
Eventide Blackhole Immersive *
Eventide Micropitch Immersive *
Dear Audio dearVR Pro 2

Plugins that do seem to work include:

Altiverb 8 XL
FabFilter Pro L-2
FabFilter Pro Q-3
FabFilter Pro R-2
FLUX Spat Send/Return
Harpex
MeldaProduction stuff

As @klfnk2020 pointed out, many of these plugins will instantiate in 9.1.6 ITU format, but that is not Nuendo Default 9.1.6 and has a different channel order.

(* As pointed out further down-thread, the Eventide Immersive plugins behave slightly differently in that they instantiate in 9.1.6 ITU format while the others all instantiate in Stereo. In either case, the orange channel layout warning cannot be resolved because none of these plugins can be switched to the Default Nuendo 9.1.6 channel format.)

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Out of curiosity I tested the Blackhole Immersive on my Mac Studio M1 Max, it loads and works in 9.1.6 on my machine just fine (running Monterey).

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Interesting. Actually, you may be onto something with this one. The Eventide Immersive plugins will load properly onto a 9.1.6 ITU bus (no orange indicator of doom).

Unlike the other plugins on my naughty list, the Eventides will instantiate onto a standard 9.1.6 Nuendo bus without falling to orange Stereo. But they don’t work just fine: the channel order is all wrong, and the orange input configuration warning lights up (just as it does in your screen shot—if you check closely, you’ll find that your Blackhole channel order is screwed up). If you use the input configuration pull-down menu, Nuendo will not let you change to the Default (9.1.6) channel format, and the orange warning will not go away (9.1.6 ITU is not a valid option in the pull-down).

The above behavior seems to be exclusive to the Eventides. Every other plugin I mentioned on the naughty list will not even instantiate as “orange warning” 9.1.6 ITU: they go straight to orange Stereo.

Interestingly, in further testing, many of these plugins will instantiate on a 9.1.6 ITU bus.

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Unfortunately thats a different problem. Nice that they fixed it though.

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I would be curious if you also experience your plugin sometimes working, sometimes not? I feel there must be some parameter to it that I just cannot find.

Thanks for sharing your list! Interesting that the FabFilters work in your case, as my L2 Limiter doesnt, really.

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Sometimes working, sometimes not — no, not something I’ve seen recently. I used to see that a lot in Nuendo 12 with the older version of Harpex (as relates to input channel format and having to unload/reload the plugin). But Harpex fixed that on their end a long time ago, and it has worked well with Nuendo since.

Maybe I need to delve into FabFilter Pro L-2 to see if it is not functioning properly—walking through my surround-capable plugins, L-2 always seems to instantiate just fine on a 9.1.6 track or bus, but I’ve never had occasion to use it on a 9.1.6 project.

I should also add Fiedler Audio Gravitas to the naughty list. I’ll edit the post to include, and also annotate the difference with the Eventide plugins.

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@klfnk2020, was trying to see if there was a good workflow around setting up special-purpose ITU busses in my 9.1.6 project just for surround plugins that support 9.1.6 ITU but not Nuendo 13 Default 9.x.x (like Blackhole Immersive).

Results were not great.

Tried to create a special bus in the ITU format just for the plugin, and then re-image or re-render the ITU channel output to the appropriate 9.x.x format using VST MultiPanner. Not only is this inelegant in a project/workflow that is otherwise Default 9.x.x, it does not work right. The “9.1.6 ITU” output does not convert well to 9.x.x. MultiPanner completely eliminates the wide channels. Mono or Stereo sources would be received intact by the plugin, but 9.x.x sources sent to the plugin would likewise be mangled or lose channel information.

Even if you go simple, disable the MultiPanner (Standard Panner, bypassed) and add post-plugin inserts like MixerDelay or MeldaProduction’s MChannelMatrix to reorder the channels manually (and additionally map Lc/Rc to L/R and L/R to Lw/Rw), the surround image is still off because of the different speaker placement.

I guess I’m embarking on a support campaign with the various plugin vendors to get them to support 9.x.x in Nuendo 13. It sounds like Steinberg changing their 9.x.x channel formats in Nuendo 13 was the right thing to do, in order to adhere more closely to the VST standard, but it broke earlier support, and most vendors aren’t exactly falling over themselves to get this fixed.

Fiedler Audio has been very quick to respond and is working on it. Stratus/Symphony 3D is going through iZotope and Native Instruments, so who knows what kind of response that will get. Eventide is asking for more details, (not that it’s hard to replicate). And I haven’t received a reply from LiquidSonics/Reverb Foundry or Dear Audio yet.

Blackhole Immersive is sweet, and I adore the LiquidSonics/Reverb Foundry reverbs. Really want these to work!

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I recently had the same problem with CR in one of our 9.1.6 projects. I even thought at first that the plugin only officially worked up to 7.1.4. But then I read on the website that it also supports 9.1.6.
So I used Stratus 3D. And it works. However, I only used the 6 top speakers in the mix. So I don’t know what I would have heard from the other speakers. Unfortunately, I can’t remember whether the plug-in was running in 7.1.6 or 9.1.6 layout. I could have sworn it was 9.1.6… :thinking:

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I managed to contact most of the vendors on the naughty list. Only Dear Audio has not responded, but they’re the one I care the least about.

Fiedler was extremely responsive, and evidently engaged immediately with JUCE to get to the source of the Nuendo 13 channel reordering and support issue. Layouts affected are 9.0.4, 9.1.4, and 9.1.6.

I also heard back from LiquidSonics. They said that there was a sudden flurry of developers reporting this to JUCE after Fiedler, and pondered if this was my doing (maybe?).

LiquidSonics said the fix would really need to be made by JUCE to their framework, and it does not fall to the plugin developers to try to work around the issue just for Nuendo 13. (It seems that not all vendors must be using JUCE, as evidenced by Audio Ease, FabFilter, FLUX/IRCAM, etc.)

So it sounds like fixes are being discussed, although when and how JUCE-based plugin developers incorporate any framework fixes into their products is unknown and could be a matter of continued customer nudging.

FYI, LiquidSonics also advised that the VST2 versions of the plugins do work in 9.x.x. So that may be a decent workaround in the meanwhile.

Unfortunately for me, although I run Nuendo 13 in Rosetta mode, all of the LiquidSonics VST2s (with the exception of Reverberate) are mysteriously absent—not blocklisted, just missing, even from the Plug-in Report.

The Usage Logger shows that Nuendo scans and is aware of them. They just don’t show up anywhere in the application at all. The VST2s are all available and functional in Reaper, and Nuendo 13 lists hundreds of other VST2s from other vendors: it’s just the LiquidSonics/Reverb Foundry stuff that is inexplicably absent. LiquidSonics says it’s a Steinberg issue, and so I am contacting Yamaha about it. Could take a while.

If you have any tips on MIA VST2s, please share!

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Maybe 7.1.6? For 9.1.6, Stratus 3D will only instantiate in stereo mode (at least the VST3).