Can someone do a little null test for me? SOLVED - Sort of

This is alot simpler than it looks, but…

The test:

Create a new, empty proj
Load a VI in the Intsr Rack (F11), Kontakt would be a good example
Load an instrument
Ensure that the instrument does not:

a) have any round robin samples
b) have any other type of effect that would have a random algorithm (reverb, would be one ex)

Also ensure that the instrument itself does not have a random algo (Omnisphere would not work for this test)

Create a MIDI track, and route the track to the VI
Record a few bars
Do three mixdowns, importing those back into the proj:

  1. Choose the master bus as the output channel in the export audio window
  2. Choose the master bus as the output channel in the export audio window (yes, do this again)
  3. Choose the instrument track as the output channel in the export audio window

Remember to mute each new audio track so it doesn’t get added to each subsequent mixdown

With the MIDI track and 3rd audio track muted, flip the phase on one of the two open channels
The two files you are checking first are the two master bus mixdowns; this is to dbl-check that there is nothing in the instrument that causes any randomness. Those files SHOULD null down to infinity. If they don’t, you have either:

a) done something wrong, or b) chosen an instrument that in some way contains a random algo. In either case, stop the test, and go get youself a chocolate chip cookie and a glass of milk :slight_smile:

Ok, now that we have checked those two files and we know that they null, we are sure that there is no randomness in the loaded instrument. Now for the meat of the test:

Mute one of the master bus mixdowns, leave the other open, and open the instrument track mixdown. The only two tracks that should be open would be the master bus mixdown, and the instrument track mixdown… Flip the phase on one of them. Do they null down to infinity?

First patch of the Universal Sound Module (Acoustic Grand Piano) is good to use for this test for those who don’t have Kontakt. Nulls in C4 both ways. It can be had at Steiny’s FTP site.

Got a direct link?

@Jeff, I think we can be certain that Cubase’s export is legit. It’s the sample library programming that is sketchy.

A bit tricky to find:
ftp://ftp.steinberg.net/Download/Legacy_Plugins/

Yeah - I am not questioning Cubase’s export functionality specifically - I am just questioning in general.

I get MIDI input, (light flashes) but no audio. What am I doing wrong here?

Is the output of the Instrument Channel routed to the Main Outs?

Doesn’t matter. There is no audio at the Instr Ch.

But the answer to your Q is yes.

–edit-- the dll is only 226 kb. Of course I have no sound…

Did you download the content file as well?

After I posted ^, yes :laughing:

Ok, that does null.

So does RMX. But while doing a non-r/t export only. When doing a r/t export, they do not null.

Kontakt does not null, PLAY does not null, Ivory does not null.

Not exactly sure what is going on here…

You can monitor during Realtime Export so I’m guessing the latency of going through the converters has something to do with it.

What if you record to an audio track using flexible routing?

Flexible routing? I only know of flexible routing via the control room; you’ll have to explain that one to me.

This one is related to the “MIDI playback timing jitter/glitch” problem as mentioned by others. But as it seems only few people care.

While doing the null test try to move the exported audio region back and forth by 1 Sample (change time line to samples and change start point of the region in the info line)

Look here:
https://www.steinberg.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=7250

Thanks for the info and the link dsb.

This has nothing to do with MIDI playback timing jitter/glitch. If it did, ALL of the main bus ops, and ALL of the Instr Trk ops would not null when doing a NON-r/t export. But they do. It’s the main bus ops that dont null with the Instr Trk ops - that’s not timing, jitter, and glitch. There is no hw invloved. And MOST of the file does null - only part of it doesn’t. Therefore moving it - regardless of how small an increment, will not help.

Can someone who has Kontakt check this, please?

Cheers.

Route the Instrument Channel to a Group or Dummy Output and record direct to an Audio Track. :confused:

My post was related to yours saying that it didn’t null when doing a realtime export, which - i’m quite sure - is timing related. When exporting offline, things mostly seem to be fine…

But I will check your test scenario and do offline exports only an see what happens then…

so i did your little null test!

Master out 1 -> Master out 2 (phase filpped) = null
Master out 1 -> Trk out (phase fiipped) = null
Master out 2 -> Trk out (phase flipped) = null

But offline export only!

I did it in realtime as well -> nothing nulls

Could you do me a favor as well? What if you played your original Kontakt-out (from the instrument, not the exported audio) against any of your exports? Do they null?

That’s because MIDI playback (not export) can suffer from random shifts in length and position.
Quite a few users started topics about this, but according to Steinberg there is no issue :question:

Is there anwhere in the world outside this forum where anything nulls 100% all the time? (I know Ableton is perfect at everything :mrgreen: )
And although my reference is audio some of the rules, especially mechanical ones, will apply to midi.
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/180268-bob-katz-null-test.html

There’s quite a few threads elsewhere if anyone cares to google. Failed null tests seem to be quite normal.
After all interphasing of instruments is what gives a recording it’s character. Everything needs to be slightly out to avoid sounding mechanical.

If it’s really serious someone will give it a number. I go with they guy on the example thread who points out that all nulling does is to prove your copy and paste works fine.
I sometimes get null, sometimes not but then I only check when I see threads like this. Because I mix with my ears I guess. :smiley:

:smiling_imp: Maybe Cubase needs to remove the phase invert button. Never had any posts on it before it was there. :question: