# Clef change splitting double repeat

I would like to have this clef change appear after the double repeat bar; but Dorico wants to split the repeat like this:

Probably I don’t know what I’m doing, but I really would prefer the clef change to happen inside the bar after the repeat. Is there a way to accomplish this?

Unfortunately at the moment there is no way to force this clef to appear after the barline. What Dorico does is logically correct, but not everybody likes it! We will hopefully be able to introduce a means of forcing a clef to appear after the barline in the future, but I’m not sure when that will be.

I’m not around Dorico right now, but I suppose if you really want to, you could hide the clef, move the first notes after the clef change a little to the right and add a C-clef glyph where you want it. Hopefully it only occurs a few times in your score…

If you don’t care about playback, you can attach the clef to the second note after the repeat, and then move it past the first note with the Horizontal Spacing option in engrave mode - but you have to write the first note at the “wrong” pitch to make it look correct.

Undoubtedly simpler than my suggestion!

This behaviour is in no ways logically correct. Observe the following. The main argument against such practice is the ambiguity of creating a space that could be construed to be a measure when none exists.
See attached orchestral reduction exhibiting the problem.

Well, does the treble clef apply to the material that you are jumping back to after following the end repeat barline, or to the music following the start repeat barline…?

It applies to the music after the repeat.

The clef can only be located two notes to the right of the repeat sign thus altering those two notes to the position of the previous clef and there doesn’t appear to be a fudge factor by using a non-existent horizontal displacement of the clef and fudging the notes. That will not correctly play.

Right, that’s my point: the clef applies to the music following the end repeat, so it is correct for it to be shown on the right-hand side of the end repeat barline.

Does the attached example of Carlo looks good and correct for you?
I understand Carlos point when I look at the screenshot.

Yes, Rene, it does look correct to me.

In this case the opinions differ.
I don’t like the space in between either. I have never seen that so far in a full score before.
But of course I have not seen all scores existing.

For what it’s worth, Daniel, I agree that the current solution is logically correct. I think, however, that in this case many of us would sacrifice logical correctness for the sake of an economic and unobtrusive notation. Imagine a page of a score for full orchestra, cut in half by two heavy repeat barlines with an empty space in between just because, say, the cello group happens to go back from tenor to bass clef at the beginning of the second repeat section. I have never seen such a thing before Dorico. It would dramatically interrupt the ‘visual flow’ of the music and draw way too much attention to a simple clef change in my opinion. I agree with Carlo and Rene here. I’d much appreciate a means to force the clef to appear after the barline and I’m glad that you’re considering it.

Same here - I brought this out last December yet. It also applies to meter changes at repeat bars. The only negative comment I received so fat from a client regarding Dorico’s output was precisely about that; though to be fair, the reaction was more one of puzzlement (my clients having been universally pleased with the results otherwise). At any rate, the team is well aware that many of us are unhappy about this. I’m quite certain we have been heard!

Hello,

Having the same issue here, I think correct (or logic) software behavior should be balanced by usage and tradition
I have the same problem here, and I respectfully think that it looks ugly

Furthermore, I honestly doubt one could find such way of notating this in ancient editions… Am I wrong?

Anyway, it is surely a feature request

Cheers,

Alex.

Hi, I am aware about an official opinion of Dorico team, but I still do not agree I “have” to accept this automagical Dorico behaviour. Even if some rules say - it “have to be” like this. I would be happy to be able to set one double repeating line and a clef after this line. If there is a different opinion what would be right or not, why not to let a user to choose?

Everything takes time to implement, mipi. Perhaps we will implement an option to (incorrectly) show the clef to the left of the end repeat barline, but it’s not a high priority compared to a lot of other things that people are expecting us to do.

Shouldn’t the clef change rather be to the right of the following start repeat barline? If it’s written inside the first repeat section, as Daniel suggests, I might interpret it as being the clef to be used when repeating section 1. If it’s shown inside section 2, no harm is done, even when it may actually be redundant (when repeating).

Fortunately Dorico is flexible enough and allows to fake it using SMuFL😊