Session View or Clip Launcher in Cubase like Bitwig/Ableton

Cubase
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So I think since rewire is now obsolete, we can hopefully have a discussion about this without people saying “just use Ableton” or others trying to keep Cubase selfishly what they want to keep Cubase as for their own style of music creation. Apple created such a feature for Logic and it’s been very well received by users who had been requesting it as much as Cubase users. MOTU added something similar to DP too, clearly they’re smart people at Apple and MOTU, so it goes without question that there’s a massive base of potential users out there that would welcome this feature in Cubase.

If you do anything non electronic music related or you don’t see the power of session view/non linear clip launching, please stay away from this thread :+1:

So lets discuss, but before you post please remember if you don’t like or will never use this feature, you don’t have to comment. You use what features you like and feel free not to use the ones you don’t like. Also as explained above please don’t tell us to go use Ableton, Bitwig or Logic, we want to use Cubase. Rewire is gone since Ableton 11 , Logic is Apple only, Bitwig is way behind for audio features and midi and DP I won’t even bother commenting :joy:
So please, let’s not have this thread pile up with predictable comments, they’re boring and we’ve heard them all before :hugs:

So speaking mainly to the electonic music heads or those who know Ableton/Bigwig non linear power, do you feel this would be a useful feature in a future version of Cubase, hopefully near future? :raised_hands:

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Trouble is, It can’t happen in Cubase due to the audio engine pausing as elements change or it has to keep sync with the plugin chain.

The arranger track is very close to being clip style launching - but it’s more like ‘scene’ launching really (Try it if you haven’t already). But even then, there’s short glitches and flickers of audio when moving between events. I’ve not experimented, but I guess it occurs to keep things in sync where there’s longer lookaheads on plugins perhaps?

Also, don’t discount the amount of solo guitarists/songwriters who utilise track looping for creating songs. This isn’t an EDM only topic, loop pedals have been common place since the 90s and even artists in the 60s and 70s were playing with such ideas.

Recording verse, chorus, bridge parts and different drum/bass/key patterns is a great way to riff and develop songs no matter what genre. So, if it were brought to Cubase it may surprise more than just EDM users so would definitely add some spice.

But as above, I just can’t see how the audio engine could deal with it. It needs to be smooth or it’s no good. Also, the CPU overhead on ‘musical’ mode is a lot higher than Ableton audiowarp, something else that would need to be addressed/improved.

I feel that Cubase is more likely to grow in the orchestral, articulations, score editing direction than loop recording, but there has been definite steps towards EDM genres recently. But, It’s just not a spontaneous ‘live’ DAW at heart, it’s very methodical and deliberate in design - too much at the core level needs to change.

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Ah that’s a good point, I hate that the audio stops every time I add a plugin on route something.
It still shouldn’t stop this feature though, you can add all sorts to Halion and Groove Agent within the plug itself without any glitches, so a solution could be to make a vst that works like session view, Loop Mash would be a good place to build upon, Groove Agent too.
So does anyone know if Logic has the same audio engine annoyance, does it cut out when you add plug or no?

The arranger track just isn’t an option for this type of workflow, It’s just not even close to the same type of flexible workflow. Amazing feature though, use it all the time to rearrange mixdowns.
I keep Ableton 10 on my system and won’t ever be updating but now we’re in a situation where Cubase may drop rewire in the future, or at least it won’t be supported anymore as it’s obsolete software now

Yes I 100% agree and know from experience how useful session view/clip launching is for non edm type productions, that’s why I said “electonic music heads or those who know Ableton/Bigwig non linear power” . Those who get it get it, those who don’t may come to love it, if we ever get it.
It’s just a different workflow and it would be great to combine it inside Cubase without any other apps involved. This is the essence of what Bitwig aimed to do, can you imagine how solid and flexible a production tool Cubase would be with everything you can do in Ableton/Bitwig session view along with what it already has :exploding_head:

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No, it’s smooth, as is the new looping functions. But again, not quite like Ableton workflow. But probably would be similar if Cubase added this functionality I feel. Also Logic was able to take the foundations for looping developed within Garage Band.

I remember many users saying they were leaving Logic when that functionality was added, I was already moving from Logic/Mac to a Cubase/Win10 setup so i don’t know if those people did actually walk away or it was just empty threats. But for some reason there’s a strong dislike towards clip launch style approaches vs traditional DAW conventions.

Maybe Steinberg could be the company to take a primarily EDM focused feature and sell it to the conventional crowd? Because it’s the only way i can see it working within the Cubase userbase - i.e. sell as a song creation tool across many genres and not an EDM tool. Show a guitarist laying down some bass, some rhythm guit, and then riffing lead over it, and then changing between verse, chorus, bridge at will.

Same with mapping out orchestral sections into clips, bringing in layers of strings in conjunction with brass sections and pick and mix for new compositional ideas etc. So many people are not awake to this way of working.

Fix the audio engine so that it doesn’t stop, and they could be onto a winner… perhaps… :slight_smile:

Trouble is, on flip of that, I see a lot of unsettled users here in the past year or so (MIDI control has stagnated, Apple users with poor CPU/Graphical issues, Presonus doing well with their PR of Studio One workflow, Issues with E-Licenser and server authentications, 4k Issues, Support issues etc.).

Bringing in session/clip launching and not fixing long standing issues could have a very negative affect on the existing user base who feel that their needs are being pushed aside. It’s very hard to know how this forum truly represents the larger userbase.

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Yeah I hear that, it strikes me as more of a distain towards EDM (although I hate that stupid name myself :joy:) and kids making high quality competing music with inexpensive tools and software people like that ignorantly look down upon :exploding_head:

I honestly think the best way to implement it would be a vst3 plugin like I mentioned. I’d prefer it if it was done like how Bitwig and Logic have done it, but like you say, people would make a drama out of it instead of just not using it like they don’t use loopmash, because that’s too wanna be EDM :thinking: :woozy_face:
If the oldskool don’t want it, hide it like they do with all the other plugs they never use in Cubase.

We only see this push back for features associated with younger people making electronic music based around night club performance. I never see anything like this push back whenever anyone talks about a new guitar amp feature or a new way to score or record a drum kit with more ease and creativity. This is what I meant about people shooting the idea down because of their own selfish reasons. I’d bet my house that once they used a properly implemented session view/clip launcher feature, they’d be writing in it all the time.

Think you also have a very good point about taking the non linear workflow and selling it to the linear i wanna stay with one workflow option crew. I bet there’s thousands of users who make live recordings or score movies and video games who dip into Ableton for some extra randomness and creativity who could show people how and why this would be a welcome addition.
Look at how many linear daws with the same left to right tape like workflow there is with similar if not the exact same features and functions in each. I’d run out of fingers to count in no time.
S1, Pro Tools, DP, reaper, mixcraft, traktion, Garage Band, Band Lab, logic, reason, cubase, nuendo, S1 Prime, Acid, Audition, harrison, ardour, energy, samplitude, on and on and on

Then we consider how many daws we have to choose from that do non linear and linear workflows in one integrated system and still give the user solid audio mixing and audio editing features in one daw with good 3rd party developer support and stability, at this point, it’s only logic. I mean Apple, really, Apple :exploding_head:
Bitwig is very close, Studio One will probably do it first if I’m honest but I don’t want to switch from Cubase. But if they do I’d have to consider it, especially if they update their browser to something similar to mediabay where you can actually see all sounds in all sub folders by highlighting the main folder, bloody click fest at the mo :joy:

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So, only people who agree with you should comment? :thinking:

Well, I don’t necessarily agree that this is the best use of Steinberg’s resources but I’m honestly curious to know why you use Cubase in the first place.

I’m a “use the right tool for the job” kinda guy. And I work on a very broad spectrum of genres. Everything from EDM Remixes to scoring for film to sound design for corporate events to recordings that don’t even use a click track.

I can produce an EDM track that will stand up to anything out there. I just don’t do it by poking at an Ableton Push controller.

I bought LIVE 1.0 the day it was released exclusively for the warping. I didn’t have that tool yet.
( For the younger set, there was a time when Cubase did not have warping ).

AND I used Rewire to sync it up with Cubase.
BTW, slightly off topic but I’m pissed that Rewire has been depreciated. it’s NOT obsolete. Being able to sync and interconnect two DAWs is a perfectly relevant function. And I’m also pissed that I have to use Reason as a plugin now.
But I digress.

As soon as Cubase introduced warping I quickly forgot about LIVE.
That said, I did discover years later that LIVE was the most stable DAW for syncing TV tracks with a live performer WITH a redundant rig locked up in parallel. Ableton insisted that the best way to do this was with the audio on the internal drive (which was unheard of back then). I used it for many live TV performances without a hitch. It was bullet proof under those circumstances.

Again, the right tool for the job.

So, to recap. I’m just curious about why you bought Cubase in the first place.

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Been on Cubase since 1999 back when we had a dongle that went in to the printer port, I don’t want to switch. But I love the creative way I can come up with things in Ableton and Bitwig that I’d never come up with in Cubase. Many would say the same about Logic, Pro Tools and all the other linear staples. The days of getting creative in Ableton and then mixing down in Logic or Pro Tools should be long gone by now, but people did that and still do for a very good reason.
I don’t subscribe to the different tools ideology, I want one daw that let’s me do everything technical and creative. Also I don’t use Ableton Push, most users of Ableton don’t either. It’s only been a short while since we could even use push over Rewire anyway. Another nice thing about these non linear daws is that they’re very easy to navigate and get creative with on a small laptop, I don’t even bother having Cubase on my laptop anymore, Bitwig lives there. I’ve never liked the limited basic audio editing side of Ableton and the terrible browser, I only use Ableton over Rewire with Cubase to get the best of both worlds.

Also, it’s not all about EDM, it’s about creativity, can you imagine a live performer doing what Ed Sheeran does with one mic, one guitar and a bunch of loops pedals in Cubase? What would Cubase do in that scenario that couldn’t be done with a free daw like S1 Prime? Now apply the same question to Ableton or Bitwig, throw in a launch pad of any brand, different ball game.
Another example, as it’s what I was just doing a mo ago :joy:
If I record a bass off some hardware, I can totally mangle and pitch slide, chop up and reloop that sound to something totally different. then I can combine it with random sections of other loops or sections of the project and come up with totally new tracks, new ideas, new riff combos, etc.
You simply can’t do this in Cubase, you just can’t, hence why so many use ableton even though it lacks on the audio editing and mixing, it excels at creativity, where it kind of, matters the most (I did say kind of). I don’t wanna have to open Ableton every time I want to do something like this, especially now I’m stuck with Ableton 10 because Rewire support has stop. Also, I’d love to have Bitwig or Ableton as a plugin like you have Reason as a plugin. If reason do a good session view/clip launcher I’d consider that immediately as I do think a plugin is the best way to do this without people loosing it.
But you hate using reason like that, see, different strokes, but can you see how it feels now you’re forced to work that way and have no choice? That could happen with people like me who love their linear daw but also love using Ableton over rewire, hence this thread. Hopefully something can be done before we see the back of Rewire all together :raised_hands:

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Not sure about the vst3 route, i’ve used plugin work arounds in REAPER via their extension system, Think it was called Playtime or something - but it just felt a hack/bodge to me and left me feeling quite confused using it, whereas Ableton is all about simplicity and slickness.

If it’s not simple and straight forward to ‘jam’ and then transition that performance into the main timeline - it’s not worth implementing (IMO)

Same with loopmash really, i think it’s a unique idea and when i first played with it i had grand ideas of bringing loops in and playing around with them. But in reality, i’ve never done anything with it.

It feels like you can’t really transition from point A to B with it. And that’s what i look for in live tools - i prefer to trigger chord changes and progressions in a musical sense. Ableton always great for that.

The fact that they can sell a ton of controllers to accompany it along with their Atom range would make me 99% sure they will lol. In fact, i think the Atom SQ had some kind of Ableton integration from launch?

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There is an option.txt solution for Rewire in Live 11. It is not officially supported and I did not try it.

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Interesting, I’d prefer to stay on Live 10 and not get involved with unsupported workarounds though, thanks for posting anyway :+1:

I think the thing to take away from this video is what the host said and is doing. He says he’s a media composer and he’s working with Logic and Ableton and really, really, really, really, relies on rewire, why? Why is he using both, exactly, hence why I wanted to start this thread.
A media composer should just be using Cubase, pro tools or logic, right? Well no obviously not, not if they appreciate what session view/clip launching can do for randomness and creativity which you will never get out of Cubase in it’s current form.

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Having more features like this would be a great benefit to Cubase users of all types.
I kind of wish that the Arranger track could accept midi input for changes but it still would be lacking in areas to give it compositional weight.

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100% Agree. Steinberg, we really need Session View in Cubase.

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No we don’t absolutely need it. Nice to have perhaps, even for non-EDM creation. However, and this is the rub: creating these kind of features is a lot of work and takes resources. Which means something else is not done instead.

For DAWs like Bitwig or Live this makes sense as it’s part of their DNA. Apple did it in Logic but that’s a bit different. Logic is most certainly a loss-leader for Apple and they’re probably more concerned getting younger users onto their platform than they are concerned with catering to current users or workflows.

So how important is this for Cubase? It’s at least perceived as one of the “classic” DAWs used for scoring and general mixing and recording duties. It makes much more sense for Steinberg to strengthen their offering here than to go toe to toe with applications that are much more suited for electronic music creation from the get go.

Again, clip launching is of course not strictly for EDM and could be useful but it’s hardly the obvious direction for Cubase. There are so many other things that makes way more sense for them to work on.

Just sayin’. Again Steinberg might have plans to cater to EDM-creation or they might not. Lots of buzz lately about the return of the guitar as a popular instrument though. I’m thinking we might see a bit of a renaissance for more traditional music making and it would make sense for a few DAWs to be stronger in that area.

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Agreed

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Not to take anything away from your request… but this is one of the highest voted threads on this forum…

The thread starter there points out Groove Agent, and I agree… If anything goes the way of Ableton Clips, it should be done as a VSTi, which could feature MIDI export to Cubase arranger.

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I think the idea for this features was to simply modify the Arranger feature, which is already in Cubase but just never really got any updates or QoL features which would make it more usable for work involving stacking of parts, or live compositions.
Far cry from what I think some of you guys might be thinking.

This is the thread I support:

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Personally I’d much rather see them add some form of “assignable to anything” modulation system over a clip launcher, if they are going to take anything at all from modern DAWs like Bitwig & Ableton.

The native modulation in Cubase hasnt had any updates since the addition of MIDI inserts & quick controls. QCs are now more or less obsolete, now most modern plugins have MIDI learn functionality, but could very easily be updated to Ableton style multi-use macros knobs with the simple addition of a closable tab below each QC with 8 mod matrix slots.

Using automation lanes in sound design sessions where a simple LFO, MSEG or envelope would do is incredibly tedious in 2021. Using MIDI inserts or plugs like LFO tool just clutters up the project with a ton of MIDI tracks for all the I/O routing to plugin inputs.

It’s by far the area where Cubase is furthest behind it’s more modern counterparts, if you ask me

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Doing it in a vst is more likely as there’s so much push back on integrating it into the core code of Cubase. Maybe another dev will make that vst, Maschine 2 is kinda of close. Honestly feel the loop mash is the thing Steinberg should revamp into a clip launcher but I won’t be holding my breath :joy:

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Should be fairly easy to do this by incorporating the midi inserts page alongside the eq and strip page in all channel strip pages. Along with revamped and more flexible midi inserts plus a fix of the bug so this all works as expected when you reload a project. I agree it would be a great addition to cubase to add movement to sounds.

Does the current method actually work in cubase 11 when you reload a project? I’m still on 9.5

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I find it interesting that people start threads on various forums about bitwig modulation or its new midi FX in cubase, floating velocities from logic or this and that from studio one, pro tools or X daw. I never see push back or the keep cubase in the 90s crew going nuts. :dizzy_face:
But the moment Ableton, Session View or Clip Launcher is mentioned, BOOM :thinking::face_with_raised_eyebrow::rofl:
Yeah I’m sure some will go out of there way to chime in on such threads now, only after reading this, but its very clear.
Seems it’s more of a distain towards DJs and so called EDM more than anything else, your post points to that too, disappointing.
It’s kinda like the people who hate the MPC because really, they hate hip hop/rap music and look down on the people who make and consume it.

People who create dance floor music are the most creative musicians. Why I hear you ask, little to no arrogance towards other genres. Inspiration is allowed to come from anywhere with little ego, if it feels/sounds good that’s it, a get yourself out of the way and let the music be what it is mentality.

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