changing brackets and Engrave mode

Hello,

I think that the changing of brackets in Engrave mode is not so efficient because Engrave mode allows only Page View.
How about it

  • if changing brackets are allowed in Setup or in Write or
  • if Engrave mode allows displaying Gallery View?

But different pages can show different systems containing different instruments, and brackets can thus change at the start of any system. How do you suggest this is handled within Galley view?

Because there are staves hidden in Page View, but there are empty staves on the first page.
In Gallery view, there are no hidden staves.

Manual bracket and brace changes are a function of Engrave mode, and since they’re “visual,” they should certainly be added or modified in Page View.

That’s exactly my point. You don’t have system breaks in Galley view, so how would you deal with brackets and braces midway through a flow? Would you want to insert brackets and see them getting in the way of your continuous flow of music?

And as to allowing Galley View within Engrave mode: in Galley view the distances between staves are consistent, whereas on the page they may differ from page to page. How would you expect Dorico to control for that?
Example here: left side is Page View, right side is Galley View.

You are all correct, but my suggestion is from a different perspective.

I do not need often change the brackets on each page in Dorico even if some instruments disappear on some pages.

Therefore, setting correct brackets on the first page is important.
The problem is that there are usually some empty staves on the first page. Thus I must put arbitrary notes in the first bar on the first page to set up brackets correctly, and then I must erase the notes.

I would avoid this.
Does anyone not experience the same problem?

Why don’t you just set your Layout Options to show all systems on the first page? Then set your brackets. Then update your Layout Options again.

(Disclaimer: I’ve not tried this, but on the basis that prko’s current workaround works, I can’t see why my quicker solution shouldn’t.)

Why don’t you just set your Layout Options to show all systems on the first page? Then set your brackets. Then update your Layout Options again.

I did not hide any staves on all pages.

After reading your comment, I inspected the score again, and I know now about what I have been confused!

The problem lies in the staves of percussion players.
The layout option you have mentioned does not affect the instrument staff when the instrument staff is in the player which has more than one instrument.
Screenshot 2019-02-03 04.49.51.png

Ah! At least as far as I’m concerned, it’s really helpful if you can illustrate the problem, rather than submitting a feature request - if there is an existing solution, it’s the quickest way for us fellow users to guide you towards it.

Have you experimented with sorting bracketing for whatever is on page 1, then dealing with bracketing again when different instruments are showing later in the flow? I believe you can alter the bracketing as frequently as you like…

it’s really helpful if you can illustrate the problem, rather than submitting a feature request

Thanks! I will do it!

In Finale, I must frequently change if I engrave an orchestra because Finale does not have the concept of “player”.
However, I do not need to change brackets in Dorico so often as in Finale frequently. The setting on the first page can stay to the end of the piece. It is amazing!

The problem is that Dorico does not make brackets correctly or not ideally when a player has more than one instrument. Please refer to https://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=246&t=153502
Then I should change it: in all staves on the first page, I must put an arbitrary note per staff of the players in which there are more instruments than one instrument.

It would be nice if I can set up brackets on the first page without inputting/deleting these extra notes.

Did someone experience the same thing and have found a solution?

I’m not sure which thread to add to, but given this one’s the most recent one I’ll stick with it.

To get all percussion instruments to show on page 1, in addition to showing empty staves, you need to untick Layout Options > Players > Allow Instrument Changes

You asked about getting instruments grouped together, on the other thread. There’s a grouping option on the left panel of Setup mode. Have you tried adding your Timoani and Batteria 1 Player to one group, adding your Batteria 2 player to a second group, and adding your Batteria 3 player to a third group? You should find that that nearly fixes the problem - in my test I found that the second and third players were bracketed correctly, but the first player had two brackets (because the glockenspiel is a pitched instrument surrounded by unpitched instruments). This can be fixed using the bracketing tool in engrave mode, without entering any notes.

I can’t help thinking you might make life easier for yourself by using Percussion Kits rather than grouping lots of instruments together, manually, but maybe there are other complications that I’ve not considered.

To get all percussion instruments to show on page 1, in addition to showing empty staves, you need to untick Layout Options > Players > Allow Instrument Changes

I already did it.

You asked about getting instruments grouped together, on the other thread. There’s a grouping option on the left panel of Setup mode. Have you tried adding your Timoani and Batteria 1 Player to one group, adding your Batteria 2 player to a second group, and adding your Batteria 3 player to a third group? You should find that that nearly fixes the problem - in my test I found that the second and third players were bracketed correctly, but the first player had two brackets (because the glockenspiel is a pitched instrument surrounded by unpitched instruments). This can be fixed using the bracketing tool in engrave mode, without entering any notes.

Thanks! That solves the problem!

I can’t help thinking you might make life easier for yourself by using Percussion Kits rather than grouping lots of instruments together, manually, but maybe there are other complications that I’ve not considered.

In my previous project, I used Percussion kit, but Percussion kit has the following problems:
https://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=246&t=153497
https://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=246&t=152975

It seems that using Grouping is currently the best solution.

I recently had this when I discovered that for some reason the piano (which only plays sporadically in this particular opera) didn’t have a brace at all, so I had to set all staves to show on the first page to be able to add it. A complexer situation occurred when I had to add A clarinets to the B-flat clarinet players. I already had a bracket for the woodwinds plus an extra bracket just for the clarinets. After adding the A clarinets, the secondary bracket extended only to the second B-flat clarinet and not to the A, and I had to copy music to the second A clarinet to be able to bracket it, and then delete the music. Not terribly time-consuming but still a workaround which takes getting used to.

I still don’t understand why you’d need to force staves to display on the first page, if they’re not eventually going to show there. Why not just fix the piano bracket the first time the piano actually appears?

It used to be a standard publishing convention to show all the staves fully labeled on page 1 of the score, rather than having a list of instruments on the title page.

I can’t think of any deeper philosophical reason for doing it.

The layout of the score can be changed later.
If we set it on the first page, we do not need to find the page on which the bracket must be updated.